Nguyen Đinh Tu’s interview (Part 5)

Nguyen Dinh Tu, pen name Nguyen Tu, is a famous correspondent of Chinh Luan, one of the most prestigious daily news of Vietnam before 1975.

The interview was on 05/07/2003 in Alexandria, Virginia

Interviewer: Le Manh Hung, historian, author of Vietnamese History In Retrospect.

Translated by Phan Le Dung.

Nguyen Đinh Tu’s interview (Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5)

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Nguyễn Đình Tú 6 –VP-LMH-A071

LMH: The day before you were talking about Lam Van Phat’s failed coup attempt and Quat ‘s meeting with ambassador Taylor.  How ‘s the situation after that?

NT: About one or two days after that, I think it could not have been more than 3 days (just about one or two days later). I contacted Quat. I was a bit surprised that he was not aware of that news. He should have been informed, and later he was.  So I informed him. Quat said: You go with me then? I said: Yes. They also told me to go. I did give them my license plate number (then, I was still Youth General Director).  I drove Quat to the Military Headquarters at 8:00pm.  When we got to Le Nguyen Khang’s guest room, Bui Diem was there with Le Nguyen Khang, and of course, Pham Van Lieu . . . Quat, me and Nguyen Van Thieu. Their meeting was pretty informal. We sat on the balcony for fresh air and open space. Thieu also took a chair to sit down. Bui Diem was bustling around Thieu.  He did not come near Quat, though he did nod in recognition. He was bustling, circling to Thieu. When Thieu sat on the balcony, his feet on the balcony’s guardrail, Bui Diem just stood there beside Thieu. Seeing that, I could not describe my -not displeasure, but rather my disgust at the sight.  Firstly, Bui Diem was the Chief of Staff at the Prime Minister’s Office. What kind of Chief of Staff would not even ask after his superior, the Prime Minister, when he was in such a distressed situation? While I was only an outsider, not involved with the high office of the Prime Minister in any way. I was only a low-ranking official, but I had informed Premier Quat right away after hearing the news.  In the meantime, the Cabinet Director Le Duc Hoi did not say anything; Military Chief Le Ninh did not say anything; Chief of Staff did not know anything. I was very surprised.  Hence, when seeing Diem bustling, completely attending to Thieu at the Marine’s Headquarters, I suddenly asked myself: How should Quat conduct himself in this situation?  A Chief of staff is always viewed as a special aid to the Prime Minister. He is more important than the Cabinet Director. The Cabinet Director’s duties are more of a bureaucratic nature. And the Chief of Staff, as you know, sometimes contacts congress and the outside world on behalf of the Prime Minister. The Chief of Staff is such an important position, because he has the absolute faith of his superior. In those days, I was only an outsider, but I saw that it was something that I must do. In the meantime, Bui Diem took off to hide in Colman’s room -on the other side of the street, on the Eden side. . . And from then on he kept everything to himself. He avoided contact with Quat. He also ran to my villa in the Youth Ministry’s office uninvited.  As I have told you, I gave that villa to Ung’s family. That night, I went out for dinner and came back to my office at night to work.  Ung’s wife saw that the light in my office was on. Ung told his son to go over to my office to see whether I was there. Diem was there.  The day before the meeting at the Marine’s headquarters, Diem suddenly asked: Did you meet with Mr. Quat? I said: Yes, I did. I did not tell him anything about the meeting with Taylor, absolutely nothing. Then he asked me to contact Pham Van Lieu for him. I said: I don’t have his phone number. I did not bother to ask why he asked me to contact Pham Van Lieu?

LMH: At that time, did Quat’s clash with the Catholic happen yet?

NT: Ah. . .

LMH: When the Catholic had their demonstrations.

NT: I remembered it did, yes that happened. No, it was only a few days. He became Prime Minister on 17th, the 17th, . . . after . . . after.

LMH: What did they talk about in the meeting at the Marine’s Headquarters?

NT: Most of it was just small talk. But when the talks went on inside, I respected their privacy and remained outside.  Of course, being the Prime Minister’s Chief of Staff, Diem should have been by Quat’s side, but he was always next to Thieu. Pham Van Lieu was also inside, always making calls to his office loudly ordering his men to arrest this or that sucker . . . arrest Tran thien Khiem . . . He saw Le Nguyen Khang’s new M16 and loved it. Pham Van Lieu sat at Le Nguyen Khang’s work table. He only went out to the sofa outside a few times, but came right back to his table because of the weapon and telephone there.

LMH: Lieu was the Police Director at that time?

NT: Actually, he also worked for the Marine before. The doors were wide open, and I could see everything. Sometimes I could hear the sounds of their talking, laughing. The balcony outside was large, from here to here. I stood next to the balcony’s guardrail observing, taking a look inside now and then. They talked for a long time, but most of it was just chattings. I have to tell you right away that I never asked Quat. Quat also never said anything about his talk inside. I only observed from outside. Sometimes Quat sat at the divan, Thieu sat on a chair next to him and they talked to one another. Le Nguyen Khang was very courteous. From the beginning till the end he was silent, only playing the role of a host, providing a place for the guests to talk. The guests’ talks were not his concern.

LMH: So only Thieu and Quat talked about their main issues?

NT: They talk to one another. Sometimes Le Nguyen Khang talked to. . . Of course, Bui Diem was also there. But what Diem, Quat, or Thieu said, I did not know.  They sat there till very late. Le Nguyen Khang invited us all to have chicken rice soup. When the soup were served, Le Nguyen Khang came out and invited me in. We both talked, (basically just chatting). I forgot. They stopped their talks twice. Thieu walked out, sat outside for a few minutes as if getting some fresh air and then came in again.  And then probably when their talk had already ended, Le Nguyen Khang invited everyone to have soup. We all sat and ate together inside. No one talked about politics during the meal. Diem was, of course, beside Thieu. As for Quat, he did not seem to worry or anything, meaning his face was cold and without expression. He seemed not to pay any attention to Diem’s attitude. His, I thought, was the proper attitude.  As we finished our meals, when the drinks were served, I walked outside, just in case they wanted to continue their talk. Le Nguyen Khang was also considerate and walked outside to talk to me. Later, Le Nguyen Khang and I became close friends. Then Thieu came out sitting again carefreely on the outside chair, saying (of course to the Chief of Staff standing next to him): Ah, we have to remember the date for that soccer game (it was a game between Vietnam and another country which I forgot), and we have to go watch that game . . . and that was it. The meeting was over. We all returned.

LMH: Why do you think they invite Quat for a meeting like that?

NT: Yes. That was the question I meant to ask Quat, but then I hesitated and never did. Often, when, for example, with Taylor. When Taylor had him come in for private talks, Quat always dragged me along.  This time, I informed him about the meeting at the Marine Headquarters. Later, I never asked who invited him. Thieu or Le Nguyen Khang? But Lieu was the middle agent. And then Lieu telephoned me at my office. Actually, in that talk, meaning after I had Quat and his two deputies come to Bien Hoa to meet with the Generals, then there was a meeting at . . .

LMH: the Headquarters.

NT: Headquarters.

LMH: I want to ask, what do you think happened?

NT: I think: perhaps, at least because Quat was already in Bien Hoa, Thieu wanted to probe about his role while Quat was still the Prime Minister. Thieu always observed the American embassy’s reactions. I think the news about my meeting with Taylor had probably leaked to them.

LMH: Meaning?

NT: I never revealed my meeting with Taylor  to anyone, not to Hoi, Diem, Ung, or Sung. Later, a long time after Quat had resigned, when I revealed to Sung, he was furious. He was very angry at me. Well, there were issues that were personal. I didn’t think I needed to reveal those issues to Sung.

LMH: So, the Generals had not pressured Quat to resign then?

NT: No. I think they were probing. Thieu and Nguyen Ngoc Huy. Later, I knew Thieu was Kieu’s younger brother. Kieu was close to me, but Thieu was quiet, even to his own brother. He might reveal a bit if Kieu asked, but not otherwise.  I think he saw Quat coming to Bien Hoa, meaning Quat did know a bit. The infightings between the General had happened as such, and now it ‘s time to push Khanh out.

LMH: So, who was the General Chief of Staff of the Army then?

NT: May be Vien? No. . . I forgot whether it was Vien. I forgot.

LMH: And Thieu was Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff then?

NT: Then, it was Feb 1965, Feb 1965. That ‘s right. Yes, he was still Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff.

LMH: And after that?

NT: Because at that time Quat was already the Prime Minister and then . . . Oh, I forgot then he became Deputy Minister and Defense Minister during Quat ‘s time.

LMH: During the time Quat was Prime Minister?

NT: Yes. That time.

LMH: So, Thieu was then deputy Prime Minister?

NT: Deputy Minister, Defense Minister. . . that ‘s right, no longer chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff . . . The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff must have been another man, but they are from the same group. It might have been Nguyen . . . Duc Thang.

LMH: Thang was the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff?

NT: That ‘s right.

LMH: But who was the General Chief of Staff?

NT: I forgot.

LMH: And What about Nguyen Khanh?

NT: Nguyen Khanh was Chief of State and Prime Minister.

LMH: No. I thought Quat was already Prime Minister then?

NT: I forgot. Nguyen Khanh was chief of State.

LMH: I thought Suu was chief of state?

NT: I forgot. I forgot. Then Nguyen Khanh . . . Perhaps Nguyen Khanh was General Chief of Staff. I forgot. Suu was the Chief of State, Nguyen Khanh was still the Prime Minister.

LMH: No, Quat was the Prime Minister!

NT: I forgot, Nguyen Khanh . . .

LMH: Because after students’ and Buddhists’ demonstration then Nguyen Khanh resigned.

NT: Yes.

LMH: Then Suu and Quat came in.

NT: Yes. Khanh invited them ịn

LMH: Yes. But what was Khanh ‘s position then? Because he was no longer the Chief of State, no longer the Prime Minister.

NT: Perhaps, General Chief of Staff. Maybe. You need to check on this. . . You were right on this. I forgot. Suu was the Chief of State. Because later there was friction between Suu and Quat.

LMH: Then, what happened after Quat met with Thieu at the Marine’s headquarters?

NT: After that I did not keep in touch with your Dad any more. At that time, there was a remarkable thing that I had told you already. But that had failed to materialize. Your Dad invited me to be his Chief of Staff. Since Bui Diem was there, even if I wanted to accept your Dad’s invitation, it was not the best time to accept it there. . . Ha, Ha…  Later, your Dad kept on reproaching me: Why did you not accept my invitation? I said: I did not have any intention yet. And I still have to wait for Kieu ‘s approval to formally let me go.

LMH: No. Uncle, you should have accepted the invitation, because then Quat knew Bui Diem had betrayed him, and he was isolated already.

NT: I agree, but . . .

LMH: Quat should have dismissed Bui Diem, but there were other difficulties.

NT: Yes. there were. . .

LMH: And so . . .

NT: (The difficulties were ) Because  Quat. had to keep his words with Mr. Tran (Trong Kim). Later, when we both were in prison, I did ask him. Quat told me that Mr. Tran had asked him to look out for Diem.  After the meeting at the Marine’s Headquarters, I thought their private discussion was not meant to back Quat up.  And Thieu was very smart. He just walked slowly.  At the meeting there was only Le Nguyen Khang. He was there alone, without anybody.

LMH: Ky was not there?

NT: No. Absolutely not.

LMH: I thought Le Nguyen Khang was on Ky’s side?

NT: Ah, but when the wind changes its direction. .? We never knew whether Le Nguyen Khang did tell Ky later. And after that meeting Ky was still not yet the Prime Minister.

LMH: No. He became Prime Minister after Quat resigned.

NT: That ‘s right.

LMH: And how soon did the Catholic’s demonstrations start?

NT: Quat was the Prime Minister for not even three months, and things happened almost continuously one after another.  He was criticized and I knew they posted a vulgar protest: “Phan Huy Quat sucks d**k). I knew that, but did not tell Quat.  Quat, however, knew that the Catholics were protesting him extremely.  When we were in prison, I asked him, reminding him of the Catholic protests.  He said: It was such an unfortunate thing! I just became Prime Minister when archbishop Nguyen Van Binh requested a meeting.  When we met, he said he would like the Government to return all the Church’s properties. And I had just assumed the premiership, I was still confused (with governmental issues of all types). I still remembered that I had contacted him at that time about the Taylor incident. Archbishop Binh drew out a tiny book in his pocket, saying: I am only worried about the number. These numbers I always kept in my pocket. And Quat continued: I did not refuse, but I was a bit angry. I told myself, I just became Prime Minister and this issue was suddenly put in front of me. I told archbishop Binh: I have just assumed responsibilities, would the archbishop please give me some time to review this issue and then I will respond.  That was it.  Mr. Binh went back, probably told his subordinates a different story or urged them to pressure the government with demonstrations. I did not know about the development of the protests in detail. I only knew that when the Catholics posted their banners at the Ba Chuong church. Quat knew about the demonstrations and he was furious, but he had to deal with his political problems, with the Americans, with the Generals, and he had no time to prepare anything.  He was able to establish only one thing. When Taylor returned to the US, he came to talk to Johnson: I think there must be a symbolic token to show the US’s commitments with Vietnam: Build the embassy.  Johnson agreed right away and started that project. He and Quat laid the first brick to build the embassy. This was his only most concrete success.

LMH: And what was the conflict between Quat and Suu?

NT: Our government was organized and modeled after the French’s. The tax money from the horse race was submitted weekly to the government. The amount of tax was not fixed, but based on the money collected from the tickets.  That tax money automatically became the Prime Minister ‘s private fund. Quat automatically had that private fund, and I never asked how much money was available. That fund was automatically there weekly and was there exclusively for the use of the Prime Minister. Prior to his resignation, the Prime Minister could even withdraw all the money in that account. Khanh, for example, could have done that and no one could criticize him at all.  All Prime Ministers had that hidden account for his own usage, regardless of personal or not. There ‘s no need for explanation or justification. This was a French’s custom and Quat had that hidden account as well.  Using that fund, Quat made two contributions: One to the Military Council, the other to Suu. This was the rumor I heard. Suu’s subordinates probably told Mrs. Suu and there were issues going on inside his family.

LMH: The Chief of State had no share in that fund?

NT: No. The Chief of State had no such fund. When Suu said he needed a certain amount for something, Quat refused. When we were in prison, Quat told me: If money was issued for some spending, then that would be justifiable, but I won’t accept having money go out to him, simply because I must share. Secondly, the Military Council also requested. I forgot the name of the doctor, wearing glasses. We knew one another for a long time, but I forgot his name.

LMH: Nguyen Luu Vien?

NT: No. A short guy, a northern guy, wearing glasses.

LMH: Military Council or National High Council (Thuong Hoi Dong)?

NT: No. Military Council, not National High Council.

LMH: So that gentleman was a General?

NT: The General Secretary was Pham Xuan Chieu. I knew Pham Xuan Chieu very well. Pham Xuan Chieu was a fighting guy. He was General Secretary then. During Diem’s time, he was colonel responsible for security.  He was gradually promoted to General and then he became a citizen.

LMH: Pham Xuan Chieu also went to the Yen Bai Military School?

NT: Yes. Pham Xuan Chieu did.  Yen Bai was another story which I will tell you later. He was a dedicated soldier, anti-communist. A great warrior, but not really a moral model. I will tell you later. Back to Suu. He was furious for not getting his share of the Prime Ministe ‘s hidden fund. Everything originated from this financial thing. . .

LMH: And what was the problem with the Military Council?

NT: There was one guy, a very close friend of mine. He was also a doctor. Doctor Pham . . . Now, I forgot his name.

LMH: Pham Huu Chuong?

NT: That ‘s right. Pham Huu Chuong! No, not quite. No, The National High Council was still there. I forgot.

LMH: Pham Huu Chuong was not a member of the Military Council?

NT: No. He ‘s not. That ‘s why. The National High Council was probably right.

LMH: Suu was the chairman of that council.

NT: That ‘s right. Pham Xuan Chieu was the secretary of that council. Pham Huu Chuong automatically said we gave them money. He did not say it was for him, but for the council.  Pham Huu Chuong believed that Quat would sign a check with his name on it. Quat did exactly just that. He signed the check to Pham Huu Chuong, the general secretary. Then Pham Xuan Chieu knew about this.

NT: And Chuong took that money personally.  Your dad could have easily signed the check to the General Secretary. Usually, these official checks were just signed to the General Secretary, or to the Prime Minister. They were almost never written out to a specific person . . . So Quat made that mistake. These two things should not have given him any trouble, but it was just unfortunate that things were not going smoothly for him.  Personally, I think Suu was too rigid, but he was also right, as far as the convention goes.  But, politically speaking, money talked.  Had Suu got the money, he would have agreed to anything, but Quat did not give it to him, to his subordinates or to his wife . . .

LMH: So Quat did not understand politics too well.

NT: That ‘s exactly right.

LMH: But were those things by themselves enough to cause his downfall or were there other factors?

NT: When we both were in prison, he told me: Catholics’ demonstrations, the Suu’s affair, can you imagine how annoyed I was! And the Suu’s affair gave the military council a dominating position. What do you suppose I could have done?  I thought Thieu was plotting and that might have involved Thieu himself. . .

LMH: whose plot? Thieu’s or Ky’s?

NT: No. Thieu’s. Ky had no plot. He just heard and was instigated by his subordinates. Ky was then the Prime Minister already.

LMH: No. Not yet.

NT: No. I am not talking about the current issue. I am talking about later, when he became Prime Minister. He had never plotted to remove Thieu. All other Generals were hesitant and then pushed Ky to do it. But Thieu was smart. Though it was only 1965 then, he had already thought of 67.

LMH: Let ‘s return to Quat’s story. So the Generals exploited the Catholics’ protests and the Suu’s affairs to pressure Quat to resign?

NT: I think they had exerted tremendous pressure on him. They exploited the Suu’s affairs to raise an unsolvable issue: Now what happens if the Chief of State and the Prime Minister can not resolve their difficulties? Besides, when Quat saw that Bui Diem was bustling around Diem, and Pham Van Lieu was there he sensed that things were not going his way. That was how I felt about it. Now that you asked, I think Quat must have felt discontent.

LMH: This .. . Now that my Old man is already gone, we can’t ask him directly.

NT: No. We can no longer ask about that in detail.

LMH: Inside our house, I heard other members say that my old man did not allow the Americans to interfere. Had he agreed to let them interfere, he could have solved his problems with Suu and the Generals? Do you think this was a reasonable assessment? If the Americans interfered and supported Quat then, could that have dissuaded the Generals?

NT: Let me tell you this story. This was very clear. Nguyen Chanh Thi had told other Generals: “Leave the Prime Minister alone so he can do his work.” (verbatim). At that time, I did not know Nguyen Chanh Thi. Now he knows me and has become a close friend. Then, Nguyen Chanh Thi was the only man with character. Thi never knew Mr. Quat. They both had never met, but he said that to all other Generals . . .

LMH: At the meeting in Bien Hoa?

NT: No, That ‘s not what I myself heard. It was what other people had told me. I did not know whether Nguyen Chanh Thi was in Bien Hoa. When the Generals got out of the meeting, it was a crowd. The first one out was Ky, and then the next three were the Prime Minister with his two deputies. I did not pay attention to others. I just urged Premier Quat to return first and then we will meet later. At that time, I did not know Nguyen Chanh Thi, so even if he was there I would not have recognized him anyway. But what Nguyen Chanh Thi said was very clear: “Leave the Prime Minister alone so he can do his work.” All other Generals were saying: How can the Prime Minister work if he can not resolve his difficulties with Mr. Suu, the Chief of State?  Taylor, on the other hand, wanted to support Quat to keep the civil government rolling. I only met Taylor twice, but whenever I talked, he listened very attentively.

LMH: But by then Taylor had already returned to the US?

NT: No. When I met with him Taylor hadn’t got back yet.

LMH: No, but when Mr. Quat resigned he had already returned to the US.

NT: Yes. He had already returned to the US. That ‘s very unfortunate.  Later, when I talked to your Dad in prison, he told me that Taylor was very angry to learn of his resignation. I did not know whether he had talked to your Dad afterward, but when he was back to Vietnam, we did meet and I knew. Your Dad told me that Taylor felt frustrated and said: “All right. . . I can work with anybody.” This is exactly what your Dad told me.

LMH: Meaning Taylor was still in Vietnam at that time?

NT: No. He has already gone. Had he been there, things might have been, might have been. . .

LMH: So he was on vacation. When my Dad resigned he was on vacation . . .?

NT: I am not sure whether he was on vacation. But he just was not there in Saigon, then. Johnson was the only one in Saigon.

LMH: And then after my Dad resigned, did Taylor return to Vietnam?

NT: Yes. He did. He did not return to the US for goods.

LMH: Yes. In his memoirs, Taylor wrote that he was all for Mr. Quat.

NT: Yes. That ‘s correct.

LMH: So. Why did they let the Generals exert their pressures?

NT: Johnson was very supportive of your Dad. So did Taylor.

LMH: And so I think. . .

NT: Taylor was furious about Quat’s resignation. That ‘s why he said: All right. I can work with anybody.

LMH: Meaning?

NT: occasion manquée

LMH: Could it have been that my Dad was discontent and he simply just let go of everything. . .?

NT: Let go of everything -that ‘s right, just let go of everything.

LMH: Meaning things could have been otherwise if he wished. If he did ask for the Americans to interfere, the Generals would have listened?

NT: Now that things had already turned out that way, it ‘s no use to look back and analyze. At that time he thought that Diem had contacted the CIA. I knew those CIA guys like Rufus Phillips, and.

LMH: Colby?

NT: No.

LMH: But Colby was still in Vietnam at that time?

NT: Yes Colby was still in Vietnam, but Diem’s connection was not up to that level yet. He was only able to hang around with Colby ‘s subordinates such as . . . the guy who got married with a Vietnamese courtesan, the one who bought Mrs. Hoang Dao’s grilled fish shop. She ‘s the one who opened the Kontiki shop. I forgot his name, but Diem contacted him and Colman.

LMH: And Colman was a political advisor then?

NT: He was a member of the political panel, specializing in contacting the Vietnamese communities. Possibly a high ranking official at the embassy. Diem embraced Colman tightly. When your Dad was under pressure, Diem did not contact or ask after him. He hid in that Goddamned room of Colman.

LMH: Please continue.

NT: When your Dad resigned, I did too.

LMH: And you went to work exclusively for Chinh Luan.

NT: I was planning to visit various provinces. Just personal, not official visits. Then I met Sung. He invited me to work with him. He knew I had already resigned, so he invited me to Chinh Luan. He said: Please write. I asked: What would you like me to write about? “You write anything you would like, my friend.” So I accepted his invitation. At Chinh Luan, seeing no one writing about battlefields, I propose that I would. Sung said: It ‘s up to you. Go for it if you like.

LMH: And when you came in, how long has Chinh Luan been out?

NT: Chinh Luan got its permit on April 64. I resigned in mid 65. Then I joined Chinh Luan about a month after I resigned.

LMH: But before you came in, Chinh Luan was already in print?

NT: No. No. Chinh Luan had been applying for a permit for a long time during Diem’s time, but never got it. . .

LMH: Chinh Luan had its permit on April, 64. You did not come in till 65. So Chinh Luan was already in circulation by the time you got in?

NT: Yes. It was already in circulation. . . Chinh Luan was already in print when I was still Youth General Director. The newspaper was out very quickly, just about one or two months after the permit was granted. Sung was so happy and he was quick to find money to get it up and running. Then, it was easy to get it rolling.

Nguyễn Đình Tú 7 –VP-LMH-A072

NT: Thieu met with me in a guest room, perhaps was Diem’s old large guest room. The room was still furnished with old mandarin furniture. There were very old chairs, seemingly . . .

LMH: wooden chairs?

NT: Yes. Carved wood chairs. The furniture was exactly like that of an old mandarin’s. We talked for a long time, about 3 hours. That was 67, when he was about to run for president. I remember the year because of my question then. Ky was also running for President. They had both worked together.  I asked him: When you are running for president, there are also many others running, for example, Nguyen Cao Ky, Duong Van Minh. What do you think of your winning percentage? He smiled and said: I view this election as if showing what goods I have on the market. Voters are like customers. They choose their goods. I asked: If you are running, do you have any new programs for the government yet? He smiled and said: I did not think that far ahead yet. I am currently thinking on how to run first. Though he did not really want to reveal, later, I knew he was trying to campaign through Kieu, his brother. And that was why Nguyen Ngoc Huy was involved and later used the name Dai Viet. Nguyen Ton Hoan was deputy Prime Minister for Pacification. At that time Nguyen Khanh was the Prime Minister. Later, when your Dad was the Prime Minister there was an issue which I think was not right:  Nguyen Ton Hoan told me when Quat was Prime Minister, he wanted to push Hoan out.  I asked: Do you have any evidence regarding Quat’s behaviors, statements or any documents to back up your statement? He said: No. So I knew Quat did not really know about this issue. I said: There must have been some kind of misunderstanding. I don’t think Quat had ever nurtured such an idea.  He ‘s not a Dai Viet’s member, he only accepted Dai Viet’s nominal rank. I have to tell you directly that I don’t believe that story. There ‘s no reason for Quat to go after a Dai Viet’s position. He was not a member. And even if he were a member, he would die because of the party. . .

LMH: Later, did you find out why Nguyen Ton Hoan felt that way?

NT: I asked him a lot. I asked: Who gave you that news? Did he have any evidence? He said: No. They just said so. I knew Nguyen Ton Hoan well. He was a very kind hearted person, always trying to avoid hurting people. But he also lacked gumption. He became deputy Prime Minister for Pacification because he was pushed by Nguyen Ngoc Huy’s group. And he basically just sat there, becoming a horse for the Nguyen Ngoc Huy group to ride. But the horse was too kind-hearted. When the situation called for aggressiveness, he simply did not have it. His aides could not be by his side all the time to give him the necessary initiative. Hence, he could not succeed. And there was also this thing about Hoan: Things about him were never clear. First, when he was in the US, who was pushing behind for him to come back to be the deputy Minister?  I did not want to delve deeply into that, but it could be seen that at least the French were behind him. The French government treated him with great respect. And when returning to Vietnam, it was assumed that he was a politician, an official politician. There wasn’t any nomination or anything then. And who was behind to talk to the French?  I believe it was Nguyen Ngoc Huy. Later, Nguyen Ngoc Huy was fearful of Thieu because of that. Nguyen Ngoc Huy’s close associates told me about this.  Thieu spoke up. He said: I swear, I did not do that. I swear. Actually, it was Nguyen Ngoc Huy who did. This is a story for your ears only…