Nguyen Dinh Tu’s interview (Part 3)

Nguyen Dinh Tu, pen name Nguyen Tu, is a famous correspondent of Chinh Luan, one of the most prestigious daily news of Vietnam before 1975.

The interview was on 05/07/2003 in Alexandria, Virginia

Interviewer: Le Manh Hung, historian, author of Vietnamese History In Retrospect.

Translated by Phan Le Dung.

Nguyen Đinh Tu’s interview (Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5)

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LMH: Summer 1947, when you came to the Viet Minh-controlled zone, what did you do?

NT: Then, there was a reason that I could get out.  At that time, people were allowed to go back and forth in Hanoi.  The fighting went on for about three months.  There were negotiations and then there was a ceasefire on both sides, Viet Minh and French, so that people could commute.  People could go out to Chem, Ve, meaning they could go past Coal Street, to Yen Phu dike and from there to the Viet Minh-controlled zone.  Gradually the French regained control inside Hanoi and things were fairly secure.  Then people could really walk out on the street.  The French had controlled Hanoi completely.  They tried to fill empty houses with people.  The French had an administration office there and you could go there requesting a place to live if you were homeless.  They would ask how many people in the asking household and then assign that household to an empty house.  Sometimes a family would be allowed to live in a villa. Any empty house without an owner could be given to the new owner.  I was still at the doctor ‘s house, but then I left.  In summer 1947 I met Mr. Dang Vu Lac and Mrs. Ca Te.  I forgot who got me connected with them, telling me that Mr. Dang Vu Lac would like to meet me.  Dang Vu Chu, his son, and I did not go to the same school.  Mr. Dang Vu Lac himself did not know me.  He only knew me later when someone told him about me.  When I went to his private hospital, he was upstairs.  He was addicted to opium.  The only two who stayed with him were his wife Mrs. Ca Te and Anh, their daughter.  Later Anh would marry a doctor and then die of tuberculosis.  When we met, Mr. Dang Vu Lac asked me about Mr. Phuong.  I told him I had no news.  He then asked whether there was any way to go out and search for Mr. Phuong?  I said I could go if we wanted, but I did not know how.  He told me that he would find the means for me to go.  We had a brief talk and then I left.  Two days later, I came back as he had requested.  He said: I had talked to Lanesse, a French secret agent, and told him that you would go to talk to him.  He would help you to be on your way.  He gave me the date, the time to meet with Lanesse.  I went to meet Lanesse at the pre-arranged time. We talked.  He was French and we spoke French in our conversation.  He said, the doctor told me that you need to go out and I will help you.  However, I need more time to think, meaning there was nothing.  I came back to tell Mr. Dang Vu Lac that I did see Lanesse and that was what he said. I asked how he would like me to proceed.  He was very sad, and said nothing.  Then he asked: When you go out there what would you do?  Mrs. Ca Te said: Let ‘s buy him a tondeuse (hair trimmer) and scissors then he can be a barber.  I nodded, but then I decided to go on my own.  I told myself that I could not go via Mr. Dang Vu Lac.  I did not dare to say that he did not care, but he just could not go anywhere, being an addict as he was.  He had asked Lanesse and Lanese’s reply was clearly so.  I told myself not to ask for help from the French, but I did not tell the doctor anything when we were together.  When I went to Sugar Street (Pho Hang Duong) I met a young man, also my classmate at Lycée, but he went back to the rear areas.  Then the area was already under French ‘s control. People could go out on Rue du Sucre (Hang Duong), Rue des Cantonnais (Hang Ngang), “Rue de la Soie” (Hang Dao). All were secured. His sister and his parents were running their business again.  I asked the sister whether she could help me get into the Viet Minh zone.  She said, Yes, let me take care of that.  Two days later I had a printed paper. Right in the middle it stated that I am the medical inspector with the Vietminh seal.  So I walked toward Son Tay, going on Duvivier street.  There was an exercise field named SEPTO which I walked by.  When I left, I did not tell the doctor and his wife.  I just told them: I asked you permission to go visit my friend and stay there for sometime.  He said, please do go, son.  He knew that I was an active party member just as his son and both of them were very sympathetic.  I had 100 dollars of Indochina Money printed on red paper that my sister ‘s friend gave me.  So I was on my way toward Son Tay, till the last leg.  There was a guard post, a French guard post.  I passed by, seeing people going back and forth.  The guard post was there, but about 100, 200 meters there was no one.  Passing that post people on the other side were walking to and fro as busy doing their businesses just as on this side.  When passing by the guard post, I was alone. There was no one ahead, no one behind.  When I walked past the guard post there were two French standing there wearing no shirt, their upper parts were completely bare. Seeing me, both of them laughed.  I also laughed, waved my hands like this and kept walking.  They did not ask to see my ID, did not ask for anything.  I was surprised.  There were a lot of surprising things later on, just unexplainable. So I went past, safely on the other side.  My papers were still with me, but the French guards did not ask, did not stop me, or asked any question. I just kept on walking.  I walked into a place not knowing whether it was a town or what, but it was relatively crowded.  I came in and asked for the village chairman.  The kids showed me the way to the office of the chairman.  I told him: Comrade, I am the medical inspector.  Please tell me whether we have any clinics around here.  The chairman said, Good. Please come in. Did you have a rest anywhere? I said No. He said, then please stay here. Have you eaten yet?  Please let me have my people prepare a meal for you. He said, Here, on this side, there were a few students and a doctor.  I said, OK, let me come over.  He said, Please come back for your meal after you are done.  I said, I will.  When I went over there it was true that all medical students were there, talking, laughing aloud.  I saw the brother of the sister who helped me was also there.  Dr. Nguyen Huu was also there and a few medical students whom I knew.  Nguyen Thieu Co was the brother of the sister who helped me.  Co was so happy to see me.  We talked for a while and then I pulled him away from the group to keep our talk more private.  I told him, Co, you should return.  There ‘s no point in going any further.  And Co asked me, How about you?  I said, I will go on, but you should return.  Your sister helped me.  Co asked whether his sister had any message for him?  I said No.  I only asked her to help me with my traveling document.  When I got it I simply went.  I also did not ask whether she would have any message for you since I thought you were still at Lang Son.  I urged him to return.  I said, please do return.  There ‘s no point in going any further.  Just go home and rest.  He nodded and said he would think about it.  He asked where was going.  I said, “I have to go looking for Mr. Phuong, but you simply can not go with me.  The trip will be very exhausting.  It ‘s better that you go home.  It will be easier if I go alone.”  He agreed.  I stayed there for a night, eating and sleeping at the home of the village ‘s head.  Next morning, I went to see Co for the last time.  I then went on to Van Dinh.  When I got to Van Dinh, I knew there had been a big battle there.  But it was completely over when I got there.  Van Dinh was empty.  There were two shops there.  Perhaps the owner had returned earlier –since it was already well cleaned up.  It was dark when I got there and I went inside to sleep.  I slept there alone at night and continued on my trip the next morning.  I kept on going till I saw a wharf. I forgot the wharf ‘s name. That wharf was the place where people would wait to go to Huong pagoda.  I think it ‘s Van Dinh wharf.  Yes.  It was Van Dinh wharf.  There were old men and country women.  I told them: You should not wait all day here.  The boats will only come at night.  They can not travel now because the French will shoot at them.  I could see that people here were still doing business.  They would travel by boat from Van Dinh to Phu Ly, Nam Dinh and other towns.  I also waited there.  With my $100, I bought a few sweet potatoes to eat while waiting.  I waited till it was almost dark and heard people talking to each other in low voices: “The boat is coming.” The boat arrived when it was completely dark.  The boat stopped there, but did not go off right away.  There was a man (perhaps the boat ‘s owner) asking how many passengers total.  The boat was very large.  All the passengers went on board. They all went inside the cabin.  But I stayed out in the front part of the boat, where there was fresh, cool air.  The boat owner let me stay there. This was the first time I traveled by boat, passing the Huong pagoda.  The scene was beautiful beyond description.  That week was the full-moon week.  Traveling on a boat with cool breezes flowing by was really poetic.  I really loved it.  We passed by the Huong Pagoda.  We saw the pagoda, but did not stop there.  When the boat stopped at Phu Ly, I had to get off.  Thinking that I would not find anything at Phu Ly, I did not spend the night at Phu Ly, but went on to Phat Diem.  At Phat Diem, I suddenly remembered an acquaintance. I just passed by that person ‘s home, but did not come in.  I saw him, but stood there waiting.  Fortunately, he turned his head.  I lifted my arm up and waved.  He saw and understood.  I walked slowly toward the market.  He followed and when I looked back, he walked with a woman.  So both he and his wife walked after me.  When we got to the market, there was a crowded shop.  We met there.  I told them I had to make a long trip and asked to borrow their money.  He told his wife to go home and get the money.  She came back with $200.  I was very happy. $200 was quite a large amount then.  Added to the $100 that I had before, I had spent only 20, 30 dollars, so I still had roughly $270.  We sat there and talk, ate there. His treat.  I went on with a full belly, passing the Phat Diem church, passing Nga Mi, and walking toward Thanh Hoa.  I reached Thanh Hoa and stopped at the Ma River.  Then the bridge was broken.  No, not the bridge, but the citadel was broken.  I stood on this side of the river looking over to the other side. The citadel ‘s wall was broken, and people were mending it.  On this side of the river, there’s a high-class shop.  The shop was made of bricks and had a roof-top terrace.  I came in and asked the owner whether I could have dinner and stay the night there.  He said: Yes.  I requested dinner and a place to stay the night.  I told him that I would bathe in the river and then came back.  It was great bathing in the river and I felt refreshed. A short while after I returned, he told me dinner was ready.  I said, please let me eat on the roof-top terrace to enjoy cool air.  He brought my dinner there and I asked for a small bottle of wine as well.  Then I took the time to enjoy my dinner.  After I finished, he took the dishes away and loaned me a mat so I could sleep right on that terrace.  Next morning I went to the pine forest.  Pine forest was the gathering place for all who wished to go on.  I went inside the pine forest and waited there for a long time until the crowd was large enough.  And then we were told we were good to go.  I went with the crowd, to Quan Lai and then Thanh Hoa where I saw on the wall there were signs saying for example, Le Manh Hung teaches Mathematics, Nguyen Gia Kieng teaches literature.  I got a few names I knew right away.  Then I asked around to find out where this particular person teaches, where he stays.  I simply told them that I was looking for a tutor for my younger brother.  Gradually, I found out about Ngo Huy Chuong, also a teacher.  No, not Ngo Huy Chuong, I forgot the name.  Ngo Huy Chuong was also a friend of mine, but we only met when I had returned to Hanoi later.  Through that person, I learned that to meet other friends, I must go to Ngu Chau where a lot of them stayed at that time.  I stayed at Thanh Hoa.  There was a shop named xoi che shop.  The owner was the doctor ‘s niece.  I knew her and she also knew me, but I did not drop in.  I did not want to reveal myself. Later, she reproached me for not showing up.  When I said I was being prudent since bad things could happen for both of us, she responded that the shop had many customers and I was not the only one.  I said, it couldn’t hurt to be extra careful.  Later, when I returned to Hanoi, she did too.  It was then that she reproached me.  So I went near Ngu Chau, where I found a person, also named Hung.  He was the son of Mr. Nghi Bien of Hai Duong, a notorious person. So I first met Hung, then second, Ung and third, Lien.  Lien had his family there. He said, well, you return first and then I will follow.  He then went and informed his family. When I met Ung, both of us were very happy.  Mr. & Mrs. Quat also knew Ung. Huong also knew Ung.

LMH: But no one had any news about Mr. Phuong?

NT: No. I searched very carefully.  It was months before I returned.  All of us assembled there.  I told them, my mission was searching for Mr. Phuong, but I found you instead.  Ung had once been the contact man for Mr. Phuong.  But Ung also had no news.  Then I said we all should return.  So we agreed on the return date.  Ung and I and another person were preparing to return and then we met Phuong.  Phuong was really dressed up in a suit and tie so formally.  We talked and I told Phuong: you should return.  There ‘s no point staying any longer.  Phuong would eventually return, but not then.  He still got tied up with his family somehow.  On our way back, we went on a boat.  It rained heavily.  Then it was 2am.  The communist guard should have been there to inspect, but did not since it rained so hard.  So Ung and I got out safely.  After the escape, we went to see Phuong and told Phuong to go home, but Phuong did not go.  Hence, I went with Ung. When we reached the French-controlled zone, Ung was not allowed in.  Then I still had my paper, not the medical inspector paper.  I destroyed that paper when we got near the French-controlled zone.  But I still had my student ID.  We arrived at a French inspection office.  Ung was not allowed to go.  They told him to stay there to fill out inspection forms.  The Vietnamese personnel there knew me.  I told him.  My family is here.  I did not bring my papers with me. Please let me go home to get my documents and I will come back to show you.  He hesitated then nodded to let me go.  I returned home, got my ID and then ran to the doctor ‘s house.  I told the doctor:  Papa, you need to go and sponsor so that Ung can get out.  It was very fortunate that the Vietnamese worker there let me out, but I would not be able to get Ung out even if I got back there.  The next day the doctor went to the office and they let Ung out right away.  So both of us were out.  Later, Phuong was also able to get out.  But he did not stay there because his family lived in Hanoi.  Lam was also out and stayed there.  And then Pham Trong Nhan, you know Pham Trong Nhan right?  He also got out and stayed with us.  After staying with us for a while he had a girlfriend then left with her. Ung and I stayed there till…

NT (continued): As for other Dai Viet members whom I had met, such as at Phat Diem, Nga Mi, Thanh Hoa, I was able to get in touch, but they still stayed at their local places.  Later, when they escaped to Hanoi, they again looked for me.  When I was at Phat Diem, I stayed there for a time to help. I did not see father Le Huu Tu, but met those who worked with him. They were very interested in my ideas when I talked to them.  They asked me to write a document on how to organize better and more efficiently.  I spent three days thinking and writing.  I wrote and rewrote it three times.  When I gave them the final document they really liked it.  The document pointed out what needed to be done initially and why.  I also jotted down my observations and my proposals for change which I had itemized clearly.  When I was able to get other Dai Viet members there, Ung also got there.  I told Ung about what I did.  The people there still kept some of my documents and I gave it to Ung. Ung was very impressed and said my document was excellent.  And then Father Le Huu Tu, I saw that they implemented my proposals right away and exactly so.  From then on, as the war dragged on, when other comrades in the countryside returned to Hanoi, they looked for me again. Hence, I could connect with them.  Those were farmers. They were country people, unsophisticated and yet they were very innovative in implementing changes in accordance with the customs of their people.  I learned that from them.  When they returned to Hanoi, I saw that they felt lonely. They felt uprooted.  When they tried to adapt to Hanoi, the political atmosphere was completely different.  Before, they used to live with others who were country folks like them.  They had their own ways to solve their problems.  Once they understood the problem, they could solve it their way.  But they simply could not do that in Hanoi. They felt terribly awkward when exposed to Hanoi ‘s political atmosphere.  And they were very sad.  They did not know whom to talk to.  When they came to talk to me. I explained:  Things were different now, my friends.  We were now here in the city.  I agreed that it would be very hard for you to work or stay politically active. These folks simply could not recruit Hanoi people like they did in their hometowns. I knew that because I had stayed in the countryside, witnessing the ways they convinced their people, their reasonings, their particularly persuasiveness with others who were like them.  When in their hometown, whenever I talked, they would listen very politely, but I knew my messages did not go deep enough.  I could only talk to their leaders. I would spend time talking day in and day out until they understand completely.  Once they understood, it ‘s unbelievable to see how efficiently they could implement it.  They could achieve results very quickly and they understood each other with just a few simple sentences.  Then I had learned that to work in the countryside, people like me would fail. I could only help the leaders with my ideas, spending my time explaining until they understood.  The leaders, especially, were those who would like to change, but short on ideas.  We could furnish them with new ideas.  Of course, they would receive those on principles, but they would adapt those ideas to make them suitable for the people in their hometowns.  They would not change the fundamental ideas, just localize them to make them more understandable to their people.  Hence, we should never reproach them regarding their deviations from what had been set out.  Just make sure that they have grasped the main ideas firmly and then the results will follow quickly, much faster than if we were to do it ourselves.  For example, let ‘s focus on the time exclusively. I can spend a week explaining to the village leaders and then let them do it.  But if I don’t want to spend one week with the leaders, but try to rally people myself then the people will listen to me politely because of my personal prestige with the leaders.  However, they would not make any commitment with me.  It ‘s not that they doubt me, but rather they somehow can not connect with me.  They know that my reasoning is sound, but they really don’t know how to go about it, how to do it right.  I found that the more effective way would be spending 1 or 2 weeks with the leaders rather than spending 3, 4 months with the people.  That was my lesson.

LMH: After your friends returned to Hanoi, would you tell me more about the organization of Dai Viet during the time the French controlled Hanoi while the war still continued on?

NT: There wasn’t any organization formally.  All of my friends such as Ung, Pham Trong Nhan and others from Buoi High School did get together for discussion.  In such meetings, I often sat there listening, but rarely voiced my ideas.  Near the end of those meetings, when others pressed me for my idea, I spoke frankly.  I said, since the day we could no longer consult with Mr. Phuong, I felt that all of our plans somehow seemed inherently weak.  First, we are too young.  When we come to talk to the leaders of Dai Viet, VNQDD, or other parties, our young age is the issue.  Though these older men know that they need to work with young men, the wall of separation still exists.  The separation is not from their jealousies.  From our perspectives, we simply can not agree to everything they say since that would mean we are always going backward.  From their perspectives, they can not let us be the leaders and follow our boldness. These are my observations.  One night, we sat talking until 4, 5pm.  We were all there, Pham Trong Nhan, Ung, Lam and a few others, about 5 or 6 of us in total.  In that meeting, I said, we had to admit that when Mr. Phuong set the focus of the fight on the French, making them the first and foremost enemy, he was incorrect.  The focus on the French was a failure.  That failure could be seen clearly when I sat the entire day and night at Ham Long school, only to be dismissed.  There, we gathered, supposedly, to fight the Vietminh.  However, I did not have any rifle, all who were with me did not have any rifle either. None of us had anything, except for a few rich ones who had enough money to buy illegal rifles, which was often a mousqueton with a few bullets.  So how were we supposed to fight with the Vietminh?  Second, (this idea of mine got me rebuked by a lot of people) I think the communist-Vietminh is a rising power while the French is a falling power, noticeably falling. For me, I apparently choose not to go with the falling power.  And what should we do?  Now, all these older men, close associates with Mr. Phuong, had no clear direction.  I have met all of them.  None of them had a solution.  They chose not to speak out frankly, simply because to save face. It was one thing they were ranked higher than us and associated with Mr. Phuong more closely; it was quite another whether they had the potential and charisma to replace Mr. Phuong.  So neither can we side with a falling power like the French, nor can we side with the communist.  We are stuck in the middle. We need to find a way. Which way?  All of my friends turned to me and said: You said you will not side with the French, so you are against Mr. Phuong’s goal?  I said, Mr. Phuong is not here now.  I have spent months looking for him, but could only find a bunch of you. I took time to get all of you here.  My question is that if you prefer to base your thoughts on Mr. Phuong’s, then where is your base?  Is it not just the name Phuong? What else is there besides that?  You don’t want to side with the communist, nor do you want to side with a falling power. I am not saying that we should  not side with the French.  I am just asking what we are supposed to do?  I just got out of school, just like you all, I don’t know any better.  But assume that the French make the proposal: Let ‘s talk to the young.  How are we supposed to respond? When we meet with the French and ask them to share their power, what if they refuse to share power unless we are part of the French Union?

LMH: People often speak of Dai Viet Quan Lai (mandarin Dai Viet) with party leader Nguyen Huu Tri, the governor of Tonkin.  Which Dai Viet is that?

NT: I think the name Dai Viet Quan Lai was there, just to have a name to refer to, to make fun of, and to object. The French chose Nguyen Huu Tri to be Tonkin governor not because he was a Dai Viet’s member.  They picked him because he had been a mandarin working with them before, and they thought he ‘s more reliable than others.  Initially, the French never knew he was a Dai Viet’s member. Later, the French still used many other mandarins like him but in lower rank.  And all staff members in governor Tri ‘s office either attended law school or were district mandarins, not the governing district mandarins, but office mandarins.  There were two types of district mandarin, one governing outside, the other only working in office.

LMH: both district mandarins?

NT: Yes, you may say so.  For example, Doan Them was Nguyen Huu Tri ‘s Chief of Staff and Vu Quy Mao, also a mandarin, was governor Tri ‘s Cabinet Director.  Hence, I often told my friend, don’t criticize governor Tri for only picking his staff only from the old mandarins lot. Since these mandarin were his closest associates, he understood them well. We should not hastily jump to the conclusion that these mandarin officials intended to form their clique.  It would be more fair to judge them based on their own merits, their own performance in dealing with the current situations.

LMH: But were those personnels in the Governor ‘s staff, those mandarins, Dai Viet’s members?

NT: There were Dai Viet’s members. For example Tran Trung Dung, later joined Dai Viet.

LMH: Dung joined Dai Viet before, or at the same time with, Nguyen Huu Tri?

NT: That, I am not sure, but when we met (Dung and I met many times), I knew he was a Dai Viet’s member.  I did not know whether he joined before or after Tri. Later, Tri did join Dai Viet but I did not know who initiated him. However, he acknowledged his Dai Viet ‘s membership.  I knew this because of a special event relating to other later stories:  In 1948, having seen that we could not do anything in North Vietnam, I planned to go to South Vietnam.  Among all of us Dai Viet’s members, I was the only one thinking about going South.  I thought we had to observe our southern comrades to see what they were doing, how they were doing it and then connect with them so that we could work together.

LMH: According to what you ‘ve said, Then, when Mr. Phuong disappeared, there wasn’t any distinct organization. There were only various independent groups of comrades coming, working together by themselves, with no general party’s directions.

NT: Correct!  Take my own group. We only come together because of our friendship.  Our rapport was either from studying from the same school, sharing the same ideas and thoughts, or from having worked with one another in the past.  We met, discussed, planned, but could never achieve anything.  Hence, I planned to go South after 1948. At the end of 1948, after celebrating Tet, I went South.  In South Vietnam, I got in touch with Muoi Huong.  Muoi Huong, someone said, was the Regional Committee Chairman then.  He ‘s also a student at Lycée.  So I came to see him, but he had neither the knowledge nor the potential to be the Regional Committee Chairman.  He did not have contact with many members.  He had nothing but a name.

LMH: There were a few people, and a few documents, stating that Dang Vu Lac was the Dai Viet leader of the northern sect.  Did you hear anything or see anything that could confirm this?

NT: No, personally I did not see that.  Because Dang Vu Lac himself went to find me, asking me to go searching for Mr. Phuong, and he had a lot of faith in me.  When I returned, I told them that I could not find any information about Mr. Phuong.  After that, on behalf of Dang Vu Lac, Mrs. Ca Te (Dang Vu Lac’s wife) called many meetings with all Dai Viet’s members.  I went a few times, then seeing these meetings were fruitless, I stopped.  Other than gathering a few patriotic members who were also loyal to the party in one place, the meeting had no agenda for restoring or reestablishing the party’s prestige.  In the meantime, seeing that Tri was the Governor, a lot of members had come to him, believing that they could work for the party via. the Governor, but it never bore fruit.  When I returned from the South to Hanoi, my Dai Viet comrades went  to meet with Nguyen Huu Tri and dragged me along.  There were about 10 of us. Some of them were students 1 or 2 years ahead of me.  We met with Tri at 6pm.  He had scheduled the meeting at that time, when his office was closed, so he could have more time for us.  When we met, all the supposed “leaders” of the group were silent.  None of them spoke up.  They all wanted me to be their representative talking to Tri. When we were about to have the meeting, I was furious.  I told them, if you guys intended to have me as your spokesperson, at least you should have given me 1 or 2 days to think.  Now you just push me up front as your spokesperson, what am I supposed to say?  I was just back from the South.  I don’t know anything.  But they all pushed me.  It ‘s not that they tried to evade their responsibilities, but they somehow felt they didn’t have the eloquence to speak up on their own.  I was furious, but it was too late, and I had no choice.  It seemed that facing Governor Tri on an equal footing, as we all were Dai Viet comrades, was a formidable encounter.  When we all sat down, after introducing ourselves, I asked the very first question:  Mr. Governor, in our meeting today, may I ask about the protocols?  Is this meeting supposed to be among us, comrades of the Dai Viet party, or a meeting between the Governor with his staff?  Tri seemed dazed, completely unprepared for my question.  After a moment of silence, he responded:  A meeting between comrades.  I said, so let us address one another as “brothers” according to the party’s convention. Brother Tri, please let us know the purpose of our meeting today.” I called him brother right away, putting us on the same footing. Other members on my side were still hesitant, but I ignored their awkwardness. I asked: Please let us know your intention when gathering us here.  If your intention is about discussing the party’s issues and this is about discussion between comrades, we can discuss the party’s issue.  If your intention is to have a meeting between the Governor and his staff then that would be a different kind of meeting.  Mr. Tri said: this is a meeting between brothers.  He avoided the word comrade.  I wanted to press him more about why he avoided that word, but I refrained.  I continued: since you are calling us here like an elder brother calling on the younger ones, please let us know how you assess the party?  Mr. Tri was dazed, but he said honestly: Indeed, that ‘s the very reason I invited all of you here: so that we all can have a discussion.  I then looked around to see whether anyone had anything to say.  No one said anything.  I continued on. Yes. We are here to discuss, but what is the topic?  I don’t know before coming here whether our brothers here have prepared any topic for discussion yet.  So, please let me know what topic we are going to discuss?  Tri turned around and said: brothers, please speak your opinions. This meeting is open for all, not an exclusive meeting between brother Tu and me. You could not imagine, Ung, Hoi, Lam, and The, all were admired by the outside world, but now completely silent.  I could never forget the atmosphere.  It was dead silent, extremely uncomfortable.  That silence was already extremely uncomfortable if it lasted only 2, 3 seconds, but here it lasted 5 minutes.  Tri was very wise to keep his silence.  If I were in his position, well that might be the only choice.  But I had my own idea.  I said: Well, if no one has any idea then we would like to invite brother Tri to speak first, since he is the oldest among us.  Tri was bewildered.  He did not know anything about the party.  Though having the official title, he was not a core party member.  He was by nature, a ruler.  I understood that and I said:  Brother, with your permission, if I may, we gather here today because our party is no longer a party.  We only have the official name, but nothing else.  I dare not speak for all of you.  I am only speaking for myself.  I am a lonely Dai Viet member, searching around for my leader:  Mr. Phuong has disappeared.  Who ‘s the next leader? I don’t know.  Now, there you are, the oldest in age. I pointed at Tri.  Within a party, age has never been the deciding factor.  You might just join the party for an hour, but seeing your leadership, your charisma, I could have chosen you to be my leader.  Within a party, it ‘s not hierarchical as in governmental offices where seniority is stressed.  I have told my comrades about my travels to Ngu Chau searching and failed to find Mr. Phuong.  Now we are like a snake without the head.  With its head cut off, it ‘s impossible to attach a new head to that snake’s body. We need a new head, and who is that new head?  Now brother Tri here is the Governor.  You are the Governor, and you are also a comrade. As Governor, your duty is to deal with the French, but as a party member, a party leader, if I may say that, could you assume the responsibilities of such a party leader?  Suppose all of us, brothers here, are under your leadership.  If all of us propose a resolution, as governor, would you be able to implement that resolution?  Of course, that resolution needs to be discussed.  We are not doing this behind the French’s back. We need to plan so that if the French know about our resolution, they can see for themselves that our resolution does not harm their beloved benefits in any way.  But we have to define clearly what are the benefits of our country? And the party’s benefits will subsume under the country’s benefits.  So brother Tri, you are the oldest, please let us know your opinion.  There, you said you need a discussion topic.  I just present a topic.  Please discuss accordingly.  Tri was wise.  He did not say anything.  He would not reveal his opinions.

LMH: Though Tri just happened to work with a few Dai Viet’s members, just assume that Dai Viet had power via. Tri.  You said, you also participated later, after you returned to Hanoi.  So the Dai Viet’s members did participate, and did propose a part of the Dai Viet’s program, which had been implemented during the year 47, 48 till 53?

NT: I really did not know whether the party had any program upon which Tri could base, and from which he could orient his activities.  I did not see any program. Even in the case, such a program did exist, it was not clear cut enough to be recognizable as such.  Then, Tri had to deal with pacification issues.  He needed the Dai Viet’s members to support him.  I was in the South. I was not a pacification specialist by any stretch of imagination.  Can you imagine that the Dai Viet’s members in Hanoi could talk about me in a way such that Tran Nhu Thuan, a commissaire, a number 2 man after Tri, a pacification commissioner had come to Saigon to invite me out there to assist them with their pacification efforts? The Dai Viet’s members sent a telegram to me saying that Thuan was coming to see me.  I never knew Thuan before.  We met when I was staying at Hoa Binh, a third-rated Chinese hotel in Tran Hung Dao street (Gallieni street during the French’s time).  A few years later, Ciné Palace was built next to it. The Hoa Binh hotel was a Chinese hotel.  The French camped there before. When the camp was cleared, the French returned that property to the civil offices.  And people started to build houses.  I stayed there with Pham Chu, a friend who died already. He was a great guy.  We lived together. I worked as a teacher.  Chu did not do anything, just stayed with me.  We rented a room there.  I taught at Kien Thiet, a school where Thieu ‘s older brother also taught.  We met at Kien Thiet school and Kieu was a real Dai Viet member, not a fake one.  But I was no longer connected to Dai Viet, just basically a teacher.  When Thuan arrived, I rented the largest room for him. Chu and I still stayed in the small room.  I taught in the morning. I invited Thuan to lunch and dinner. After our dinners, we talked at my place. Chu went out so that we could discuss things privately.  Thuan kept on begging me to return to Hanoi to assist with the pacification effort.  He opened his briefcase and pulled out ordre de mission (mission order) saying Tri had told him to prepare everything, even the airplane ticket and all required documents, all had been pre-signed to invite me.  He said, please go out and assist us with the pacification effort.  I said: I can neither accept, nor decline prior to knowing what kind of duties I am supposed to have.  I said: Please explain to me first your concept of Pacification.  Prior to formally accepting or declining, I need to know specifically what pacification is.  How can I agree to take on that responsibility, if I don’t know what efforts Pacification entails?  He responded that the rural situation is really bad now.  And Tri would like to have each Pacification staff member assume the responsibility for a province, staying next to the head of province, and serve as his conseiller (adviser).  I asked: much like communist’s province committee chairman? Thuan laughed and said No, Not that. I asked, So Tri would like to have a man next to the head of province to monitor him? To see whether he is corrupted, whether he can perform, whether he can do his job?  Then, of course, not all advisors assigned to province heads are Dai Viet’s members. There must be others besides those. Right?  Thuan said: Yes, that ‘s correct.  So just let me ask you this: For all the Dai Viet’s members who agreed to work side by side with the province heads, what are their duties? You said, help the province heads with ideas? Ideas about what? The ideas for governing? Except for the old province mandarins, county chiefs who have governing experiences, the new ones do not know how to govern and we, the advisors, would offer our ideas for him to govern.  But we don’t know anything about governing.  I only knew how to fight, not how to govern.  If you would like me to offer my ideas on governing people, then at least I have to learn, or I am supposed to go there, learn on my own, directly from the field?  I would be exposed to the province, its people. But at least, I must have the most basic fundamental knowledge on how to govern.  I need to know the province’s situation, its people. Are they supporting the French or against the French, and of utmost importance is the security issue.  This is really about the fight between the Nationalist and the Communist.  We need to determine clearly how to rally people on our side to fight the Communist. We simply can not fight the Communist alone.  In two consecutive nights, I quizzed Thuan about everything.  Thuan was also anxious.  He said, brother, I can’t stay here too long.  You know I have my duties as that of a Pacification Chief.  If I stay in Saigon too long, others may think that I am taking time to enjoy myself. I said, you don’t have to worry. I can write a letter to certify that for you, but I simply can not accept your invitation right away.  He kept on begging.  He said, Well , how about this?  How about you just come to Hanoi and observe.  After observing, you can either accept or decline. I latched right onto his suggestion: If I decline, there would still be a ticket for me to fly back right? This ordre de mission must be a round trip thing then?  Mr. Thuan smiled: Yes. So be it.  So he gave me all the documents. He left first and then I followed after.  I got to Hanoi at the end of 1953, the new year of 1954 had almost started.  The Dai Viet’s members were happy to see me. We were classmates, then schoolmates, and now we were together again.  After a week of rest, I came to meet officially with Thuan.  And then the meeting with Tri was after that.  This event pushed that meeting.  Hence, I saw that we really did not have anything.  Dai Viet only had a name, but nothing behind that name.  That name scared a lot of people, even the French.  The French were also worried about having to deal with Dai Viet.  They did not know what exactly was Dai Viet.  Though Mr. Phuong had disappeared, only the young ones were left. But the French saw that Tri seemed to respect the young Dai Viet’s members. In addition, Tri himself was also a Dai Viet’s member. Hence, the French were alarmed. So the name was really powerful.  Later, Sung benefited a lot from that name.  But not in a way that it was made out ready for him.  Sung was also a great maneuvre (manipulator), but his manipulation was decent. I will tell you more about Sung later.

LMH: Now, returning to that old story, please let me know when did you meet Sung?

NT: 1953. When I went out, others had already met him. Then we were introduced to one another.  I said to him right away: I have known you earlier when I was in Yen Bai. You went there. I remembered you were wearing shorts, white shirt with short sleeves. I knew you were brother Sung since Nghien and But were your first cousins. I knew Sung but he did not know me.  I told Sung that I knew him because after that I had told Nghien and But that you came.  Sung asked, so you knew Nghien? I said, Yes. Nghien, But and I were training together. We had shooting lessons together. The evening before The Viet Minh took Lao Cai, I had treated them both to dinner at a shop right on the sidewalk before we parted.

LMH: You said you and Sung worked together  in a newspaper. When was that?

NT: Oh! Oh! My mistake.  I knew Sung from 1940, after getting out of Thanh Hoa. I knew him in 1947, when we were working on the Thanh Nien (Youth) Newspaper.  My apology.  And then after a few years. And this story. . .

LMH: Oh, if you are not comfortable revealing this story then I won’t.  I just tape it here and will not make the story public.  Is it about Paul Gannay? Please tell Paul Gannay’s story.

NT: Sung only told me about Paul Gannay’s story when we were staying together.  He often went somewhere, rarely home for lunch and only had dinner sometimes at home, most of the time he dined out with his friends.  Then, Mr. Tran (Trong Kim) was still alive.  He often visited Mr. Tran, stayed there for dinner, went out to dine with friends, or eat at Quat’s home.  One evening, he was home early. Our other friends all went out. It was just he and I alone that day. The newspaper had already been closed then.  He said, Hey Tu, it is such a sadful thing that the newspaper was closed.  I responded: well, less money lost!  He smiled and said, it was not my money.  The money was from Paul Ganney. Paul was about to return to Japan. He invited me over to see me.  At that time, I was in Hong Kong with Mr. Tran (Trong Kim). We lost everything in a shipwreck. When I returned to Saigon, I was detained by the French. I honestly told the investigator everything. I had an uncle, Mr. Dang Van Ho. He ‘s just a doctor and he came to sponsor me out. And then we met through our acquaintances. Then Paul Gannay invited me to dinner.  Paul told me without my ever asking: I opened a compte (bank account) with 20,000 dollars for you. 20,000 dollars was a very large amount then. This bank account will autofill so you will always have 20,000 dollars at all times, regardless of how you spend it.  Then he said, I took out 3000 dollars to run the Thanh Nien newspaper.  Other than that, I never touched that money.  I believed him.  Sung was never that money grasping type.  His generosity with his money was famous. Sung said: those gentlemen said we needed to have a newspaper so I created the newspaper for them. It was not my own initiative, and not for my own sake.  I asked: then what happened to that account? He said, I did not know. I didn’t even know whether that account was still there.  I believed him.

LMH: As you ‘ve just said. Sung said Governor Tri would like to have a newspaper, then why did the French close it?

NT: Because the newspapers were too critical of everyone.  And the writing style was great. Pham Hung Dan was phenomenal in his sarcastic style. I remembered Pham Hung Dan used to sign his pen name as ABC which we jokingly called: An Bun Cha (Eating Sausage Rice Noodle).  And we all longed for more and more of those delicious dishes.  Other articles were also sarcastic. The stories, the writing styles were all young and fresh since we were all young.  Our sarcasms annoyed and scared the Hell out of the province mandarins, the county chief. Even the French were not spared. So we were closed.

LMH: You said upon arriving in Saigon in 48 you did try to contact other Dai Viet’s members in Saigon?

NT: Yes. At the very beginning.  Then, the French opened a youth training class.  The class was announced on the radio, so I registered. When the class was about to start, they gave me a free airplane ticket to Saigon.  Since the airplane had to stop at Danang first, it took one day to go to Saigon.  When I arrived at Saigon, the French took me to the inspection office.  They told me to take off my shoes.  I took my right shoe off first.  We spoke French in our conversation. The French were courteous. When I was about to remove my left shoe, they told me not to bother.  I only use the youth training class as an excuse to get to Saigon.  On those training days, I also went: I trained in running, high jumping, etc… When they assembled the cadets to go to Dalat, I did not come.  They kept on calling. Then I thought I had to tell them.  They said: the school had already started, so you should go now.  I told them: No. I need to return to Hanoi. I won’t stay here.  They asked whether I needed a ticket.  I said Yes, but I will stay here for a while to visit my friends.  The first person I contacted was Huong. I was told that Muoi Huong was currently Regional Committee Chairman.  He had married. His wife was Ms. Xuyen, also a friend, so we all knew one another.  Later, when they divorced, he married the younger sister of Dr. Nguyen Dinh Hao, and moved to Dalat.  I could not contact Huong, so I asked people to tell Huong that I had arrived in Saigon.  I came to the South with the formal title: Representative of the Central Committee.  My Dai Viet comrades strongly believed in me.  When we were waiting for Huong to return, I first met Nguyen Ngoc Huy.  Then, Huy was with Muoi Minh, later responsible for Dai Viet’s finance in the south.  Composed in manners, eloquent in his talks, at that time, Nguyen Ngoc Huy was still a very young man.  He was working as a clerk for Nguyen Ngoc Tho who worked in the economic department then. Gradually, I came to see that Nguyen Ngoc Huy was a strong-willed, very intelligent person, exceptionally talented in writing. Huy also had a superb memory.  Well familiar with Chinese classics such as The Eastern Zhou kingdoms, The Three Kingdoms, he was also cultivating his French. Huy was impressive. We enjoyed talking with each other. Our comrades in the South seemed to highly respect Muoi Huong, but their respect was for the rank, not the person. Muoi Huong was not the ideal model for decency. But let ‘s put that aside.

LMH: You said you came to South Vietnam as a representative of the Central Committee. How did you get that title? Just from the votes of your comrades, and there was no Central Committee?

NT: Just among us. I told my comrades: When I come to the South, I need a title.  Now, I am just a member. Should I just say I am a member, searching for other members in the South?  Others said No, we are not trying to fool our southern comrades, but we all have worked with Mr. Phuong and were his close associates.  Let ‘s just say that we are the Central Committee. I agreed. The southern comrades were very friendly with me, and they did express their comradeship. Nguyen Ngoc Huy introduced me to Gia Hiep, Vuong Huu Duc, Nang. Later, Nang was head of  The National Guard Youth Union (Thanh Nien Bao Quoc Doan) . We all met and I told them the truth about everything during our discussion meetings. I told them: Mr. Phuong has disappeared. I myself went to search for him but the search was fruitless. We did not have any evidence about his death, so we just said we considered him missing. No one can say that we are lying.  My comrades agreed and Nguyen Ngoc Huy made a remarkable comment, saying that we need to maintain the Dai Viet spirit. I agreed saying: Yes. Correct. I also think we should strive to maintain that spirit, but how to, or whether we can, maintain it is another thing. These things depend on our thoughts about the fate of our country, about the status quo, and what we should do to maintain that spirit. Though we all agree that the party’s spirit is based on the doctrine of “the survival of the People” (Dan Toc Sinh Ton), what specifically is the party’s spirit that we should maintain?  The admirable thing about Nguyen Ngoc Huy was that he was willing to think hard, analyzing that issue deeply.  Later, he wrote a thick volume about the doctrine of “the survival of the People”. Then, Huy agreed with me. Now how should we go about continuing to maintain the party’s spirit? Mr. Phuong had said in his small book, which I am sure you have read: Whatever the outcome, each member has a duty to maintain the spirit of the party. Of course, there is nothing wrong with trying to maintain that spirit, but how to maintain and reorganize our organization so that it is compatible with the Dai Viet spirit?  To do that we have to define clearly what constitutes the spirit of Dai Viet? Does that spirit call for independence or making compromise with the French or what?  The issues that I raised were tough issues.  They said, these are really difficult issues, but we agree with you. We should all sit down making concrete plans.  So the Southern comrades were serious. They went ahead with their plan creating The National Guard Youth Union (Thanh Nien Bao Quoc Doan). But the organization was not secure enough to prevent Nang ‘s assasination. Gia Hiep was a dedicated man, but he was overly influenced by the thoughts and behaviors of characters in Eastern Zhou Kingdoms, The Three Kingdoms, especially the characters in The Heroes of the Marshes. His thinking about the party was fanatical.  At that time, the French helped out Dai Viet. They let the Dai Viets use the theater at Tan Dinh street (later Hai Ba Trung Street) as the office for The National Guard Union. At . ..

LMH: Vo Di Nguy street?

NT: No, Tan Dinh street, near Tan Dinh market. For example, if the Tan Dinh market is here, this side is the street block, then here is the theater, no longer in service.

NT: Not Tran Van Thach street, still on the new street, Hai Ba Trung Street.

LMH: Hai Ba Trung street.

NT: Yes, Hai Ba Trung street. So everyday I went there, and all southern comrades were very friendly with me. They rented a room for me on Paul Bert street (later Tran Quang Khai street). I still remember at the beginning of the street the number was 13, twenty minutes walking from Dakao market. So I stayed there with Canh. Canh was also a dedicated Dai Viet, still is until now, a very honest man. Later, he worked for the Department of Education. He now lives in France. All of these comrades were personable. I loved them all. They all were dedicated men. Nguyen Ngoc Huy was a dedicated man. Later, I disagreed with him on a lot of points, but I still had to praise him for his dedication toward the country and the party.  From then on, I could connect with other comrades in Can Tho. I went to Can Tho and then Long Xuyen, Ca Mau, meaning I had traveled to almost all the towns in the southwest, met and talked with other comrades, and met Nguyen Ton Hoan. At that time, I was a young man in my early 20’s. My duty was to contact Nam Lua. Nam Lua was a famous man then. The French believed in him greatly. Nam Lua even had his private airplane. A man of heroic characteristics, Nam Lua was very informal. His wife was also an impressive woman. She formed a woman soldier group, a formidable group. They were fanatical. She planted a social ministerial flag in Saigon river near the bridge whose name I forgot. One had to pass that bridge before reaching Can Tho.  Nam Lua set his headquarters there. Mr. Thanh Nam was responsible for the office side whereas Mr. Nam Lua was responsible for the military side.  Nam Lua was not really a General. The French gave him that title. When there ‘s an order to fight, he would go. The French, however, would rather that he would not go fighting. First, They were afraid that if he died, their prestige would go down. Second, they needed someone to control the hooligans at the bus stations. Though they could easily resort to violence to solve any conflict, these hooligans shared a sense of purpose and decency. They were also very loyal.  When I met them, I was sympathetic. If the party thinks it necessary to have these members then it ‘s quite OK. Perhaps we also needed these people. The problem, however, was to organize them effectively. That was another duty altogether. All of sudden, I was entrusted with establishing contact with Nam Lua.  One night, when I sat down to talk with Nam Lua he said: Let me say this honestly, whatever you want to do, just go ahead. I approve everything. When we met Nguyen Ton Hoan, his wife was there as well. Nam Lua invited us to his private boat, and had his boat anchored in the heart of the river where we had our talks. Nam Lua was a straightforward, unsophisticated person. Whatever was proposed, he would agree right away. After our discussion, I said: Well, brother Hoan, with Mr. Nam Lua’s support, please be in charge. You are southerners, things would be much easier for you than it would be for me. Being a northerner, I am really touched that you all trust me with serious responsibilities, but I don’t think I have enough potential and capabilities to assume those responsibilities.  They said: Please don’t say so. If you don’t do it, we won’t.  I said, No, this is how we divide up our tasks. When looking at options, we should really choose which is more convenient and more beneficial to the party. At this time, the best option for the party here is you, yourself.  You are southerners, you have to talk to the southerners.  Of course, I understand that you respect my position as the representative of the Central Committee, and I really do appreciate your trust. But to the party, the best thing is results.  Now Mr. Nam Lua, as we had seen, had agreed to our common plan, then you should base on that to proceed. That was what I said to Nguyen Ton Hoan. Nguyen Ngoc Huy and others all agreed.  Gradually, they saw that I never abused my position for any personal gain, or used my influential position to trample on others. Whenever they asked for help, I never declined. Knowing that I had trained in Yen Bai, they asked me to train others.  We came to Vinh Long where An Thanh island was on the other side. There, I assembled all the trainees and outlined a military training plan.  At that time, I knew that to use An Thanh as a training school, my comrades had to contact the French.  I knew, but pretended not to. Though I really wanted to know how the party acquired the training place, through which connections, I had suppressed my curiosity. All the trainees at An Thanh were educated young men. Among them, the lowest level of education was Baccalaureate I. One trainee was the son of a pharmacist who had his pharmacy on Phan Boi Chau street, at the gate of Ben Thanh market.  I forgot the name of that Pharmacy. When I was the training officer at An Thanh, Duong Hieu Nghia was one of the trainees. He was a dedicated man and a very brave one. Another trainee was Tran Van Hai.  Later, when Nguyen Ton Hoan became minister of youth and created a youth training school at Nha Trang, Buu Chuong and I were military instructors.  Among the trainees studying with me were Ma Sanh Nhon, Duong Hieu Nghia, Tran Van Hai and Dinh Thanh On, later air force colonel. A lot of graduates from my class joined the army later. They treated me with special respect, the way the southerners often treated their instructors. I was at the Nha Trang school for two training sessions. At that time, I was deputy director. After finishing my paramilitary training duties there, I returned to Saigon.  Nguyen Huu Chinh took my place. Later Chinh joined the Air Force.  About a few months after I returned, I could not remember exactly how many months, party members got in touch and told me An Thanh needed me badly.  I went immediately, and found out that Viet Minh had got to them.  Prior to leaving An Thanh, I had warned Nguyen Ton Hoan, Nguyen Ngoc Huy and other members of the National Guard Youth Union to be more alert when on guarding duties.  I said, If you let An Thanh continue this way, disaster surely would come.  How did I train all the trainees before?  How could you let the school ‘s discipline degrade like that?  Things simply could not be left this way.  My southern comrades were dedicated, but they did not respect discipline.  They were optimistic about everything, and were always too friendly for their own good. I said: it ‘s great to be friendly with others, but when it comes to the party’s duties, we need to have at least a minimum level of discipline.  We just can’t overlook our comrades’ mistakes simply because they are our comrades.  This is a deadly mistake.  So they asked me to return to An Thanh.  Two days later I got to An Thanh, trying to reorganize everything.  Just 48 hours after I arrived, the Viet Minh had a surprise attack. I narrowly escaped death.  Duong Hieu Nghia was brave. Things happened in front of my eyes, but too quickly for us to react. We had a mole.  Later, we learned that the mole was a guy named Phat.  I had repeatedly told my comrades that before recruiting, we have to investigate our candidates closely.  It was awfully painful that we were attacked only 24 hours after my arrival time. 17 of our men were dead.  They got shot and then their bodies were burned black.  The few that remained were Duong Hieu Nghia, me and about 2 or 3 others.  I was furious, but I kept silent.  It was such an enormously painful event.  I told myself: That was it. We were all done for. We could no longer stay here.  They were all Goddamned killed! Where the hell can we get such a group of promising trainees? We had to arrange for the burials for 30 people.  Among the dead was the son of the pharmacist, such a tall, handsome young man! What a waste!  All of them were very dedicated young men, very loyal, but all dead now only because of their lack of self-discipline. After staying there for a week, I returned.  When we all met, I said: Looking back at our experiences, I think we have to think seriously about how to deal with our lack of discipline or else all will end in failure. I said it in front of all of them including Nguyen Ngoc Huy, Nguyen Ton Hoan, Nang, Gia Hiep.  I told them all: You gave me an impossible duty. I tried my best and all comrades had promised that they would apply what had been taught. But when I left, none of those promises was carried out. Even the most basic, fundamental type of security had not been applied. Those deaths were definitely avoidable. Our deaths were caused by ourselves.  There were only a few Viet Cong at the attack, and I saw them with my own eyes.  During that time, I didn’t even have a gun in my hand.  Guns were kept elsewhere. I was so lucky. The enemy was standing there. I hid just behind the door here. He searched everywhere but behind the door where I hid. It was just by sheer luck that he did not see me. I was wounded, just lightly in the leg because of fragments of grenade, just right here. No big deal, but there was a lot of blood. When I returned, I told other comrades what happened. Then I said: Now, it ‘s the time. You have to reorganize so that you must have a minimum acceptable standard of discipline. The party’s and the country’s endeavors can not be achieved without discipline. You need to seriously review your organization.  I said it to all: Nguyen Ngoc Huy, Nguyen Ton Hoan, Muoi Minh, Gia Hiep, Nang and also Vuong Huu Duc. I said, if you don’t review and fix the discipline problems, then success would be impossible. Worse, we all may die because of that problem.  And it happened exactly as I had said. Nang was assassinated when he was driving. His assassination made the headlines of the newspaper everywhere.  He was killed exactly like Mr. Nguyen Van Sam during Bao Dai ‘s time. Could you believe how Nguyen Van Sam died? On a bus! Already designated as Imperial Commissioner, Nguyen Van Sam was the one who the Head of State would come to formally grant him his title, but Sam did not take any precaution. He got on the bus just like any other normal person. So the assassin also got in. He shot Sam on the bus and silently walked off. Nobody knew anything about the assassin.  As for the An Thanh affair,  I also said we had to investigate to find the mole inside our party. So they investigated and found out that Phat was a traitor.  I said: we have to prosecute Phat. Can you imagine that a few years later, when Phat returned to Saigon, our southern comrades met him and told me: I met Phat.  I asked, did you do anything? No, we simply talked to one another, let bygones be bygone. I said: This is simply just beyond me!  How could you possibly tell me that you simply treated a traitor like nothing ever happened?  Doesn’t the party have any disciplinary actions? With such a despicable traitor as Phat how could we let him live freely just like that without any punishment?  And I knew that despicable Phat, a tall, lean guy with a black face. My sixth sense told me that we had to watch out for him.  I had already revealed my doubts about him to my comrades, but all told me: No, he is a great guy! I had told Nguyen Ngoc Tan, Pham Thai and Bay Bop: that idiot just couldn’t keep his babbling mouth shut, always talking baloney. Then after a while Muoi Minh went to France, built up a business there, a restaurant called Le Mandarin. A successful business.  Later, when I came to France for the UNESCO conference, he invited me to that restaurant. The restaurant was big and well-organized.  The French loved it. They came there for Vietnamese rolls and other delicious food.  The restaurant had a special feature. Once or twice a week, Muoi Minh had special shows at his restaurant, featuring the live performance of Phung Ha, a famous Vietnamese singer.  Phung Ha would sing while the customers were being served.  She was a great singer, and the French loved her voice.  Muoi Minh was also generous. When the business generated money he used that revenue to support Nguyen Ngoc Huy and other comrades.  I praised the southern comrades in France: This is splendid, better than in the North.  I told them: You gentlemen did better than us in the North. We did not have any business that could generate revenue like your restaurant. Muoi Minh was successful in France with that restaurant, and they were making even more money with their illegal business. Just normal illegal goods like watches, not illegal drugs.  But they kept all their money. Contributions were never sent to their Northern comrades. I never asked for any contribution. They themselves had told me. Whenever you need money, please let us know.  I told them: No, I only need two meals a day, and the transportation to get me to places that I need to go. That ‘s all I need. I am not asking for any money, not even for my personal expenses.

LMH: You said that Muoi Huong was Regional Committee Chairman at that time. Was he related in any way to all the activities you just told me?

NT: No. Muoi Huong was not respected. It was such an awkward thing.  He was the Regional Committee Chairman. We all recognized that, but we just kind of ignored him.  There was nothing I could do. I could not force my southern comrades to respect him.  Though I had the title as the representative of the Central Committee, I didn’t even have authority, let alone power.  So I left things as they were.  I did not try to solve that problem, since I know forcing that issue would destroy everything.  Hence, I left everything as it was.  When returning to Hanoi, I told all Dai Viet’s members there.

LMH: You just couldn’t organize a meeting to vote for a new Regional Committee Chairman?

NT: I had thought about that, but what ‘s the point of having a new RCC? Who could replace Muoi Huong, since Muoi Huong was naturally recognized as RCC with Mr. Phuong ‘s approval from the past. Furthermore, all the southern members still considered him as RCC which made things unsolvable.  Our disapproval was not explicit.  Muoi Huong was not informed even about the training at An Thanh. And I myself did not inform him.  I did not inform the RCC since the southern comrades requested me not to.  I myself asked my southern comrades.  Have you informed your brother Muoi Huong yet?  Our comrades did not say anything.  All they said was: Eventually we will let him know.  So I understood.

LMH: So they formed their own group and created their own meetings to have their activities privately?

NT: Yes. Exactly.

LMH: But then, there were many other Dai Viets who did not communicate with them?

NT: No, the Southern Dai Viets still communicated with one another.  I didn’t know anything about other southern Dai Viets not keeping in touch, but they seemed all stuck together.  Because Nguyen Ngoc Huy was talented, and others were also talented.  Nguyen Ngoc Huy was the main man, whom you might consider a political commissioner, the real RCC. Gia Hiep was the highest ranking man. Nguyen Ngoc Huy, though with such remarkable education, still respected him immensely. The southern bunch stuck together and committed to their group with the spirit of “the Heroes of the Marshes”.  Gia Hiep actually did not have any talent, except quoting from Chinese classic novels such as “The Eastern Zhou Kingdoms”.  He basically was just a smooth talker. I had not seen him present any remarkable tactics to fight the communists.  The southern folks were just like that.  They had the mindset of analyzing Chinese classic novels to draw out patterns and applied those patterns whenever plausibly possible.  That ‘s the way the southern Dai Viets operated.  Once the duties had been entrusted to a non-competitive person who could not carry out those duties, they had a tendency to let things be that way. Nguyen Ngoc Huy himself was very capable though. Gradually, there was a separation line between the southern sect and the northern sect of Dai Viet.  Though the National Guard Youth Union was supported when they came to Hanoi, things were not the same when other Northern Dai Viets came to the South.  They treated me differently from other Northerners.  The unwelcomed alienation could be felt right away.  Later, I myself detached from their group, but when I was with them.  They treated me respectfully. Because I did not talk more than necessary.  I never asked for help.  And when they asked me for help, I never declined even when the work was extremely tiring or dangerous. I took duties that even their own members declined.  They had absolutely nothing to complain about me.  Later, Nguyen Ngoc Huy automatically got away from me, since I was absolutely unyielding when it came to discipline. I could be yielding when talking about any topic, but not when talking about the party’s duties.  Whenever we discussed the party’s affair, I would say: We must have discipline first. After Nguyen Ngoc Huy went to France to study, we no longer met.  When he finished his studies and went home to teach at the National Institute of Administration, we rarely met.  When I worked at Chinh Luan, Huy sometimes came there to see Sung. He saw me but wasn’t sure whether we had met. He had not said Hello, so I knew.  I knew that I had known too much about them, knew them only too well.  From Gia Hiep down, they still were polite, but we weren’t as close as before. I, on my part, did nothing to ruin our relationship. It ‘s just that they were not at ease with me because of my attitude toward the party’s discipline. And I also needed nothing from them.  I never asked for anything. I had only offered, and asked nothing in return.  But later, Gia Hiep himself was also trying to avoid me. Vuong Huu Duc seemed to be a bit embarrassed and even Nguyen Ngoc Huy also tried to avoid me.  Gradually, I knew they wanted to separate their Southern side from the Northern side. All of sudden there were a discrimination, wanting to break off.  From then on I chose to stay quiet, only staying in touch with those who wished to keep in touch, for example those young graduates who had been cadets in my class. All of them went into various branches of the army. All were colonels, bringing their wives and kids to see me, inviting me to their parties.