Nguyen Dinh Tu’s interview (Part 1)

Nguyen Dinh Tu, pen name Nguyen Tu, is a famous correspondent of Chinh Luan, one of the most prestigious daily news of Vietnam before 1975.

The interview was on 05/07/2003 in Alexandria, Virginia

Interviewer: Le Manh Hung, historian, author of Vietnamese History In Retrospect.

Translated by Phan Le Dung.

Nguyen Đinh Tu’s interview (Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5)

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LMH:  First, let me ask you, uncle, since when did you participate  in revolutionary activities?

NDT: I started in 1944.  Then there was a friend attending the same school with me, Lycée Albert Sarraut, who told me about the activities of Dai Viet, led by Truong Tu Anh.  After listening to him, I promised I would answer the next day.  Upon seeing him the next day, I told him I agreed to join, having listened to his presentation about the goals, the credo of Dai Viet.  About a week later there were two men, because I had given my address already, coming on our agreed on time.  Later on, I found out one of those two men was Muoi Huong, a student also at Lycée whom I had met before.  The second I never knew.  But later, I knew it was Truong Tu Anh, himself.  He was a soft-spoken bespectacled man of average height.  In the swearing in ceremony, we followed the old procedure.  There was an altar  –I had been told to prepare an altar with candles, joss sticks and a picture of Vietnam.  After the ceremony, we sat down for a chat, just a brief conversation in which we exchanged ideas, about half an hour.  I asked Mr. Truong Tu Anh about Dai Viet.  He explained it briefly, concisely and very clearly.  After that he said, in a few days you will receive a book about Dai Viet from which you can learn organizational technique. I did receive that book as promised.  The book was a small handbook much like a calendar handbook, made with the roneo technique, describing the formal name, the goals and the credo of the party.  The following pages explained the party ‘s rules, regulations and structure which was clear to me as I read.  The book said that the primary goal is to establish the revolutionary spirit aiming to change all the fundamental things that the French left behind.  Then we were still dependent on the French, and I was still going to school.  My understanding of the material in the book was not really solid until later.  It was not an exact imitation of Nazi Germany, but there was a part talking about social issues.  Most obviously, the book said everyone is free to act, first so that he can live independently and second, to support his family.  The book also states clearly that the party will not prohibit anyone from working to enrich himself.  A party member is free to act as he sees fit in his environment and within his capacity to make his living.  What he does and how he goes about accomplishing these things are none of the Party ‘s concerns.  But the discipline is clear, very clear.  Later, when comparing the party ‘s discipline against the Communists’, I could see that the Dai Viet ‘s discipline is more agreeable.  First, the agreeability comes from [the Dai Viet ‘s emphasizing on] the basis of self-discipline, derived from reading thoroughly the doctrine of “the survival of the people.”  Second, if something is still not clear after reading, one can always ask for clarification later.

LMH: Would you please, uncle, give the name of the person who introduced you to the party?

NT: Sure. He is a student from my school.  His name is Tran Mong Lan, and he is the son of a doctor.  Later, we became really close friends.  A short time after working as a Dai Viet member, when captured by Viet Minh and then released, the first place I stayed was Tran Mong Lan’s home.  When I was captured, Tran Mong Lan went to China, but when I came to his home, their family knew me.  His father, mother both knew me.  Lan ‘s parents had three children.  The eldest daughter is Ms Tran Thi An, the middle is Lan and then the youngest one is Ms. Tran Tho Binh.  When I was over in Lan’s home, I was very close with the youngest one.  She was very small then, still in elementary school.  After I stayed there for a couple of days, there was a message from Mr. Truong Tu Anh telling me not to stay in Ha Noi, but to leave immediately.  Hence, I went straight to Tran Quoc Tuan Military School at Yen Bai.

LMH: Please let me continue to ask you, uncle, prior to Tran Mong Lan trying to recruit you for Dai Viet, had there been any other revolutionary party trying to recruit you into their party? Had Viet Minh had any similar activities?

NT: Yes, all who tried to recruit me were students, not from the same school, but I am sure they were all students just like me.  They were not explicit whether they were Viet Minh or from other Nationalist Parties.  But later, I know they are all from Nationalist Party, but from another faction, for example, Dai Viet Quoc Xa or Thanh Nien Quoc Gia Doan (National Youth Union).  All those who came to talk to me were not being explicit, only  talking vaguely.  I only asked about the concrete, fundamental things.  They could not answer my questions, and simply told me their goal was to fight the French.  They could not even answer how they would fight the French.  This was also the question I had raised with Truong Tu Anh later.  Mr. Truong Tu Anh responded that the obvious goal of a party fighting for independence is to fight the French.  I said, I only heard about Viet Minh, but did not know who the Viet Minhs really were.  Truong Tu Anh said Viet Minh is a communist party.  I immediately understood.  As you might have known, during colonial times, there were a lot of books that had been banned.  These banned books were in the library, but were only available for the French School ‘s staff members to do research.  I was lucky to be allowed in the library.  There was a clerk responsible for handing out requested books.  One made a request and the clerk would go to fetch the requested book.  The clerk saw me many times in the library, impressed by my good manners and allowed me to read one of the banned books.  The first book I read was Indochine SOS by Andrée Viollis.  Later it was said that she was a leftist.  Then I did not know anything about the leftist, but when I read that book, it had helped my understanding a lot about the political attitude of the French toward Vietnam, toward the Vietnamese and there were secret societies.  In her book, Viollis described her meeting with the revolutionaries, meaning the Vietnamese revolutionaries.  In that book, she had also described the way the French torture.  I learned about different types of torture, electric shock torture, beatings, etc. . . Then it dawned on me, as a personal vision, about what dangers one would have to face and how one would endure if captured by the French.

LMH: Now, let me ask you, uncle, after you had joined the party, how ́s your activities with the party?  I would like to ask how the party was organized?  Were you in a group or a party cell similar to that of the Communist?

NT:  Yes, in a party cell.  First with my friend Tran Mong Lan, and then with Nguyen Tat Ung.  Nguyen Tat Ung is the Uncle Ung that you know.  Dr. Quat also knows him.  Ung and I went to the same school.  We were in a three person cell.  The agent kept us in touch with the party. I don’t know the agent ́s face, or his name, but he would appear when needed.  He would come to our designated address and would say a code which we used to recognize one another.  Then he would give me more documents about the doctrine of “the survival of the country”.  Then he asked:  Is there anything else that you would like?  I responded: If it is possible, I would like to meet the Party Chief once more because there are a few things I wish to explore further.  The contact agent accepted my request and I knew he would forward, but did not know how he did that.  Truong Tu Anh kept the contact line very secret.  Except for a very few, where he went, where he stayed during the day, or the night, nobody knew.  Only the direct contact agent knew his whereabouts. These secret ways of communicating with the Party Chief had been explained earlier.  The main reason was to shield party members from the French police.  These measures were not only for the Party Chief, but also for the members themselves.  All matters relating to security must be strictly followed.

LMH:  During that time what were your activities with Nguyen Tat Ung and Tran Mong Lan? Conversing, Researching, or any other things?

NT: Since we all went to the same school, we ‘ve already understood each other a lot.  Knowing one another closely, after reading those documents, we did talk with each other in a friendly way which was very different from the communist ‘s.  We did not follow the party inflexibly or kept on parroting what the party had said.   We were very open, very frank with one another.  In our discussion, I brought up the social issues which were one of my concerns.  I told Ung and Lan that the social issues were very clear.  As students, a few of us came to the countryside, camping, enjoying and coming into contact with poor peasants.  We knew that reforms were needed, but not how to bring about those reforms.  We all looked at Mr. Truong Tu Anh.  And this was the reason I had asked the contact agent to forward my request that I wish to speak to Mr. Anh in person.  Ung and Lan had also agreed that my request was appropriate.  Ung had once been Truong Tu Anh ‘s contact agent.  And Ung, himself, had told me that: It ‘s only possible to meet when the contact agent requested.  But it was not easy to arrange for a meeting.  When there is a request, Mr. Truong Tu Anh would ask in detail.  What ‘s the purpose of the meeting, the meeting places.  He also sent out the message to all members that his questions were not because of doubts, but security, not only for himself, but also for the members wanting to see him.

LMH: Besides those things, did you do other duties such as propagandizing, rallying, or recruiting new members for the party?

NT: Well, in the handbook that I read and kept, it was written that the first duty of a member is to disseminate the doctrine of “the survival of the people” of the party and convince new members to join.  When recruiting new members, one has to be extremely prudent, and never recruiting in haste.  But that was only advice.  And how should one do it, how should one go about disseminating the doctrine and recruiting new members?  There were no training classes for those.  It ‘s completely up to the member on how he should go about it.  Mr. Truong Tu Anh also saw that weakness.  We did not have recruiting tactics like the communists’.  [The handbook guided us on] how to approach new members, how to talk with them, and how to investigate their backgrounds.  Of course, not in detail as a police record, but at least a general idea of the social classes to which the new members belong or their political disposition.  Just to find out about the new members, but there was not any recommendation about investigating the member ‘s family to see whether they were communist.  There was absolutely nothing like that.  That was the deficiency that I had come to perceive later, but not then.

LMH:  But were you able to recruit more members for the party?

NT: Well, Yes.  As it often occurred, we did talk to ones whom we knew -For example our brothers and relatives.  Some of them were convinced.

LMH:  Had those whom you had recruited ever stayed with you or they formed a new party cell?

NT: In the beginning, they would stay with me, but whenever we have three members, those would form a new cell with the first recruit becoming the cell leader.  We often recruited this way, getting new members from those whom we knew, either our classmates or our family members.

LMH: All those party cells would stay in contact with Mr Truong Tu Anh directly and not via any intermediate agent?

NT: That, I don’t know.  But for my own party cell there was no direct contact.  We always had to go through an intermediate agent.  I assume it must have been the same for other party cells.  Also, Mr. Truong Tu Anh also said he was very busy with party activities at this time since the situation had become urgent.  After reading the handbook, unless there were extremely complex issues which called for a meeting which I would try to accomodate, you should act according to your own judgments.  As you had pledged your commitment with the party, I had faith in you.  Thus, Mr. Anh emphasized party members’ faith.  Later, I saw that as the difference between our party and the communists’.  The communist did not believe in party members’ faith.  They believe their duty is not to show their faith in the party, but to make the Party believe them.  Mr. Truong Tu Anh was different.  He believed in the mutual faith between the Party and its members.

LMH: Let me ask you, uncle, according to what you know, at that time, was the Dai Viet ‘s organizational structure different from that of the Communist’s or Viet Nam Quoc Dan Dang’s?  Whereas the other two parties had provincial party committee, regional party committee, Dai Viet only had all party cells directly communicate with Mr. Truong Tu Anh via an intermediate agent?

NT: In my case, I had never heard of anyone talking about regional party committees initially, but later I knew there were.  However, I did not know who the regional party committee in the north was.  I knew there were provincial party committees and in each province I knew there was one provincial party committee chief.  I knew that’s how the party was organized.  The handbook also mentioned the regional party committee, but I did not know who was the regional committee chief in the north or whether the party cell could communicate with the committee.  I had never contacted via. regional committee.  Often, I always requested contact directly with Mr. Truong Tu Anh.

LMH: Would you tell me how the handbook describes the organizational structure of the party?

NT: Very simple, the handbook is very much like a hand calendar, only tens of pages.  The description in there was very brief, concise, simple, outlining only the fundamentals.  There was not enough detail.  When we had to go into detail, then I myself, with Lan and Ung had to think it out, had to discuss why we should do things this way and not the other.  Mr. Truong Tu Anh also acknowledged that he had to leave the details for the members to figure out themselves and had faith in their own judgments.

LMH:  And how would you describe the way the Dai Viets organize?

NT: Indeed, my knowledge was limited then.  I only knew that there was such a Chief.  And through the handbook I read, there were regional party committees, provincial party committees, and contact men.  But the party cell was an important element, a core part.  How to protect the party cell, that was the essential thing.

LMH:  And what ‘s the rank above party cell?

NT:  The handbook did not specify.  It only said that the party cell will take responsibility for its own activities and report to the higher authority.  But it did not specify who is the higher authority.  And we all assumed that the higher authority was Mr. Truong Tu Anh himself.  Later, I found out that there was no liaison between Mr. Truong Tu Anh and us, the party cells.  And then much later, after having stayed long with Dai Viet and captured by the communist, I looked back and saw there was a large hole in the organizational structure of Dai Viet.  The deficiency was that Dai Viet had not questioned the loyalty in its members enough.  Personally, I was very pleased when initially trusted.  In retrospect, however, I told myself that should not have been how things were. There should have been a committee to monitor, to follow up closely and subject a new candidate to tests [prior to granting him full membership.  But one of the main difficulties for all Nationalist Parties was financial.  The indochina money was no longer printed in France, but directly in Vietnam.  Then, the Indochina money was printed on red paper which was called ‘Red Money’.  The Dai Viet printed counterfeit money for use.  I had seen the counterfeit money and was also told that members had to be very careful with the counterfeit money.  This was our last resort.  It was something we would rather not do unless we had to.  But the party did not hide this activity.  Mr. Truong Tu Anh did not hide it.

LMH:  And what were you doing during the Japanese coup?

NT: When the Japanese carried out the coup, I had my own contacts outside the party, not only with those I had known intimately, but also with other students not from my school.  Those were students from Thang Long High School or Buoi High School.  We hung around together when we met.  At the time of the Coup I was at the house of a lady in Vinh Yen.  Her son also went to the Lycée, but he was much younger, in elementary school.  I had visited Vinh Yen many times before, just camping. Through the young kid, I came to visit his family.  The lady had a plantation in Vinh Yen and I went there to visit her son and the lady.  She was a pious buddhist.  In her plantation she has a small prayer room with an altar.  Hanoi was seething at the time, it was clear that there were activities overthrowing the French, but nobody knew who was behind or how it started.  We talked about what was going on.  She was very clever in her talks.  Later, I knew she was involved in some revolutionary activities.  One night, after dinner, we were talking, she said: Well, Tu, (She did ask whether I was a buddhist and I said yes.) when you are back in Hanoi, you should pay Monk Nam a visit.  Please inform the temple that I had introduced you. She gave the address of a Buddhist temple in Ha Dong.  I forgot the name of the village.  Then, the coup had been completed.  I rode my bike to the temple and waited there for a while.  A novice came and I asked to see Monk Nam (then, I did not know how to address a monk and the lady did not mention anything other than Monk Nam).  The novice went inside and then went out again to ask who recommended me to see Monk Nam.  I described the lady.  The novice went in again and then Monk Nam came out.  He asked a few questions about the lady, her residence, her name and I told him all.  He believed me and then we sat down to talk.  This was the first time I saw the monk.  He was a strong, very handsome man.  He asked: What did you come here for?  I responded that I came here because the lady I met recommended that and she told me there are things that you would tell me.  He thought for a while and then asked:  And now, what is it that you wish to know?  I said that the lady recommended me here possibly to ask what would be the best way to fight the French; what would be the best way to help our people to better their lives; and what would be the best way to achieve independence for the country?  He was pensive for a moment and then started to talk as if giving a sermon.  His talk was splendid.  This was the first time I ever heard a monk giving a sermon directly to me as his only audience.  Though, previously I had heard a monk talk.  My father often invited a monk to our home to discuss buddhist scripture weekly.  If the monk came on the weekend then I was allowed to serve tea, to stand there and listen.  When the monk left, my father asked:  When you listened did you understand anything?  I responded that it sounded wonderful, but I did not understand.  My father told me: Well, it ‘s great that way, you don’t and yet you will understand.  It was precisely this statement that had led me to buddhism more actively.  Now back to Monk Nam, he quoted from scripture, he talked about the Four Noble Truths and then he said Buddhism is very liberating, but its definition of freedom is not the same as the freedom that you learn in French school.  This freedom is a special kind of freedom of Buddhism which can be classified as Occidental Freedom.  It is not the same as the western kind of freedom that your French teachers have taught you.  I said: why would there be any difference?  There are different kinds of freedom. He responded: The freedom that can be classified into many kinds only differs in forms depending on its proponents.  The Occidental Freedom is different, for example, the primordial freedom which buddhism preaches.  You come here, I have no intention to look for you.  And I won’t force you to follow me.  If you ask me then I answer.  If you understand my answer then that ‘s great, if not I will elaborate.  If you still do not understand, then I will continue to explain until I can not explain any further.  And if you still do not understand, then that ‘s the end of it.  That is freedom.  I do not impose, I do not force.  After you leave, things end there.  I do not ask where you go, neither do I ask after listening to me, how much do you actually understand.  I do not recheck things.  That is freedom.  Then I thought of the Dai Viet handbook.  Would Dai Viets act according to his preaching?  And I had a lot of questions about freedom?  I asked him, so when the political parties speak of freedom, what kind of freedom are they referring to?  I raised that question to probe his mind for his political leanings.  He responded:  Apart from the Occidental Freedom of which I ‘ve just talked about, of course there are other kinds of freedom, like the freedom which political parties preach.  Each political party proposes a certain doctrine.  Of course, they can not say they are against freedom, but the freedom they preach is the one they propose.  That freedom is completely different from the primordial freedom.  Then he said in French: De par soi même or if you studied Latin then per se.  Freedom belongs to no one.  Freedom is a thing by itself.  We come to it and we search to enlighten ourselves on it, then that is Freedom.  I retorted, thus if we consider the freedom per se, if I become one with Freedom though I don’t fully know the detail of what Freedom per se is, but I knew it ‘s mine and then can I not propose what Freedom is according to my perspective?  He smiled and said, your reasoning is correct, but correct according to the western logic.  We do not have that reasoning in the occidental logic.  The occidental logic is that if something is per se, we have to find ways to understand it, not expecting it to explain itself to us.  What he said disturbed me greatly.  From then on, I kept on asking myself, is the freedom which Dai Viet claims to fight for actually satisfactory to the majority of people?  That question I would like to ask Mr. Truong Tu Anh, but I never had a chance.

LMH: And after the coup, when all political parties, including the Communists could have their activities in the open relatively, had your activities within the party changed or remained the same?

NT:  The same.  Though our activities could be in the open, but within the cell, we never had the direct order from Mr. Truong Tu Anh that we could act openly now.  But when we acted to overthrow the Viet Minh, when the Viet Minh had their flag up in the Hanoi Opera House, then we knew we could have our activities publicly.  But prior to that day, there was never any order informing us that our activities could be in the open.  As for the rally to overthrow the communist, later I saw that the overthrow was never carried out.  We were told to assemble at Ham Long high school. A lot had come, about a few hundred young students.  There, I ‘ve met a lot of young friends.  The young men there were all friendly.  Everyone was enthusiastic.  We waited all night, then there was a dismissal order the next morning.

LMH: Well, we will eventually get to that.  According to the documents written by many, after the coup all political parties could carry out their activities publicly and political parties such as Truong Tu Anh’s Dai Viet had established a number of bases in all regions.  Did you know about these bases?  Did anybody tell you to move there?

NT:  Well, please let me return to the story of Monk Nam for a bit.  After we talked, he made non-vegetarian lunch for me, but he did not eat with me.  He had a younger sister who also had her head shaved and was a Buddhist nun.  When I was having lunch then she came out.  First I just thought that she was one of the Buddhist nun, but later I found out that she was Monk Nam ‘s sister.  Both brother and sister stayed at the same temple.  The nun was very pretty, very polite.  She had an aura of piety.  Her manner was very different from a normal young lady during those days.  I left the temple at night, when I was back at Kham Thien intersection I was detained by Japanese police.  They found a knife I have on my bike.  The knife was used to cut rice balls, but the police were suspicious.  I was detained at the police station overnight.  The next day, they interrogated me.  There was a young interpreter interpreting for them.  I told them I had no special activities.  I only visited the temple, praying to the Buddha.  They did not believe me.  They gave me severe beatings. I was detained for another two days before being released. I planned to inform Lan and Ung, but when I got home Lan had gone, and Ung had also gone.  They both had gone to the base I did not know when.  Finally, I was able to get in touch.  Then it was 8/17, the day civil workers had a strike.  Then it suddenly dawned on me that we were prepared. . .

LMH: Sorry for my interruption, but on the day you visited Monk Nam, about what month of 1945 was that?

NT: Well, at the end of July, starting August.  I am not completely sure, but it was around that time.

LMH:  And prior to that time, from March till July, then did you, Mr. Lan and Mr. Ung have any activity with Dai Viet or just discussion as usual?

NT: Just normal discussion.  We did not have any assignment to go anywhere.  But there was once, but this one is off record.

LMH:  Let me continue on with the earlier question.  Mr. Muoi Huong and Mr. Truong Tu Anh were the ones to carry on the initiation ceremony.  Later, did you know Mr. Muoi Huong ‘s rank in the party at that time?

NT: Well, then I did not know, but later when we were scattered, I knew he was the regional committee chief of the south.

LMH: He was Regional Committee Chief of the South; why was he in Hanoi at the time?

NT: I said later I knew that he was the Regional Committee Chief of the South, but then, I did not know whether he was, and I assumed he wasn’t.

LMH: And after Lan and Ung had gone to the base. When you were alone in Hanoi; when you were the only one left in your cell, did you join another cell or did you still contact Truong Tu Anh yourself via the intermediate agent?

NT: No, I did not create any new cell.  I did talk about Dai Viet to a few friends, but I did not recruit.  I only talk about Dai Viet.

LMH:  During the time the Japanese were in power, did other parties, for example, Dai Viet Quoc Xa, try to reach you to recruit you?

NT: At that time, No.  Later, they tried and I never refused outright.  I only said, please give me time, I am having family issues.  I never said I was already a Dai Viet Quoc Dan Dang member.

LMH: During that time did you have any activities against the Viet Minh before August?

NT: No, absolutely none, but after 8/17, after the day civil workers striked, I was captured by the Viet Minh because of my leaflets distribution activities.  I was in charge of a leaflets distribution group.  I told the group to meet at a building near the Hanoi-Gia Lam railway.  That building was a pretty and quiet building.  I stayed there for two days, gave my group leaflets after I received them from our contact.  When we arrived, we slept there one night.  Next morning, after giving out the leaflets, I told my men: After distributing the leaflets, disperse immediately, never return to this meeting place.  On the 17th we merged into the crowd.  After throwing the leaflets we all left.  But I was too careful for my own sake.  I told myself, I have to return to the meeting place to pull any of my men away should they forget.  That foolishness got me into the communists’ hand.

LMH:  But, back to the things before that, about the gathering on 8/15 at Ham Long High School, who told you about the gathering at Ham Long High in preparation for seizing power?

NT: A contact agent, he came and told me there ‘s an order to assemble there.  Please be there.  Then I just went there.

LMH:  So prior to the gathering, you had not contacted anyone.  The contact agent told you.  Back to the story of your capture.  On 8/17, the government was still the Tran Trong Kim government.  So how could the Viet Minh capture you?  So the capture was in secret and could be considered as a kidnapping?

NT: No, that ‘s not right.  There were two demonstrations.  The first, on the 17th; the second on the 19th.  The leaflets distribution was on the 19th, not on the 17th.  I was captured on the 19th when they flew the communist flag in Hanoi ‘s Opera House.  That was the day I was captured.  Now I remembered.  Because there were two demonstrations on the 17th and 19th.  On the 19th when they flew a very large red flag with the yellow star.  That was the day I was captured.  Because I had gone to both demonstrations so I got mixed up about the date.

LMH: And after you were captured, where were you detained?

NT: At the Sûretés office, at Hang Co (Grass Street), near the courthouse.  Then, it was the 19th; after that there were still demonstrations on Hanoi ‘s street, very, very crowded.  I was captured and then detained at the Sûreté’s office.  A few days later, I met a lot.  Hoi was also captured.  Hoi also went to Sarraut Lycée.  We knew each other, knew we were Dai Viets.  But we never worked together.  Hoi was captured.  I was captured.  Then another student also named Hoi was captured.  The second Hoi, I met at the building we met before distributing leaflets.

LMH: That meant when you came to that building, you did not know those who delivered the leaflets?

NT: No, I did not.  I only knew when I got there.  They only knew I was in charge.  That ‘s it.  We did not know one another at all.

LMH:  After you were detained at the Sûreté’s office, how long did they keep you there?  Did they release you after that or transfer you somewhere else?

NT: When detained there, I was put into a cell, but there were 8 persons in that cell.  There was Bach The Tong.  Then there was one Dai Viet member I knew.  He was a student in pharmacy school.  He was a very strong-willed person.  His family was poor, but he strived to finish High School and attended the school of pharmacy.  When we talked, I observed secretly and knew he definitely was a true Dai Viet ‘s member, not a fake one.  I asked how he was captured?  He said, it ‘s too crowded in here, I just can’t tell you.  The cell was only this large, just this large, and there were 8 inmates.  So it was impossible to talk with one another.  Later, I knew next to my cell was Cung Dinh Van.  He was shacked alone in his cell.  He groaned all night.  Bach The Tong was in my cell.  After one or two days, I was taken out for interrogation.  The interrogation day was the day I was tortured by electric shock.  Then I recalled Andrée Viollis ‘ book describing the electric shock scene and thought perhaps they would interrogate me with electric shock.  My guess turned out to be correct.  And about the electric shock.  The French used magneto electric machine for torture, but the communist used the household electricity directly. I did look on the table and did not see the magneto electric machine.  They used household electricity.  The chair was like this, but made of wood.  I was bound to the chair and then they clipped it on like this.  Though bound to the chair, when they applied the shock, my body and the chair jolted off the ground.  The first time through the electric shock, I almost fainted.  They brought me back to my cell.  My mouth was so dry, I could not even eat my ration.  In the cell, other cellmates were compassionate.  There was a man, not two old, just about 40 told me:  Young man, when they call you up again for interrogation, you should take a pee first.  Yesterday, you were lucky.  When going through electric shock, most pooped or peed in their pants.  That ‘s all that I was told.  Next time, it happened.  In addition to the electric shock, they also manually applied it to my penis.  That was terribly painful.  When they brought me back to the cell, I was a limp rag.  Other cellmates helped to massage my body.  They let me rest for a day.  The next day they called me again.  This time they just slapped my face a few times, asked a few questions and then the two of them left.  I just sat there.  Then, I was only a student, I did not know anything.  Had I left silently, I could have escaped silently.  It was already past 5:00pm.  The two interrogators had gone after questioning me, telling me to sign their papers.  They did not even call others to continue on.  I sat there until it was almost dark.  Then somebody walked by and asked: Hey, what are you doing, sitting there?  I responded: There ‘s no one taking me to my cell?  That person shouted:  Sit there.  He ran away and then two guys came to bring me to my cell.  Back to my cell, when I told my cellmates my story, a few older ones smiled and said:  Young man, why are you so innocent.  Had you walked out at the time, they would have thought you were just one of the workers and you could have escaped.  A few days later, they led me to a larger prison with a lot more prisoners where I met all.  First Mr. Phan Cao Loan, father of Phan Cao Vai, then Mr. Tran Van Tuyen, Dr. Pham Huu Chuong.  These were the three I knew.  They were in prison. I was also imprisoned here.  After that Hoi was also brought here.  After a short time he was transferred elsewhere.  Later I learned that Hoi ‘s family monitored the transferring group and was able to rescue him and a few other Dai Viet’s members.  Those members were in different cells and I did not know them.  Hoi told me about these things when we met again later.  And I was imprisoned there.  They interrogated, beat me , subjected me to electrical shock again.  Too angry, I said:  I don’t know anything.  I lied that I only went there to collect my debts.  They bought rice from my family and did not pay, so I went there to collect my money.  Then I was captured.  From then on, I kept saying the same thing.  It was funny that they never asked me about my address.  If they asked me of course, I could not tell them my address.  Then what home address should I tell them if asked?  They did ask for my name, but did not ask what I study.  They only asked whether I was a Dai Viet member.  And who contacted me.  I told them no one contacted me.  I simply do not know what Dai Viet is.  Because I denied everything, though I was beaten, electric shocked, they just kept on torturing me.  When I got back to my cell, I told my cellmates that I could no longer stand their beatings, I would go on hunger strike.  The news of my hunger strike got to them.  They got me to the interrogation room and threatened: You want to go on hunger strike?  We will let you die.  Then, I became aggressive.  I told them:  Well, I may as well die.  I did not commit any crime and yet you put me in prison.  I ‘d rather die than live in prison.  Two days later, they transferred me to Hoa Lo Prison.  In Hoa Lo, they put me in solitary confinement.  I only found out later.  A row of cells like this, there were a few empty cells.  Inside the cell there was a cement counter, about this size, taller than this, a bit larger.  It was very hot then, but inside the prison it was very cold.  The cell was not well ventilated with a toilet right at the walk-in door. Next was a row of cells.  I was the only one there.  Later, there was another person.  He was also put into the same cell with me.  I did not know who he was.  Neither did I ask, nor did I talk to him.  I also did not know why he was imprisoned.  He was middle aged, much older than me, had a wife and a son.  He said he had visitors but was not allowed to meet.  We both were very hungry, but I was on hunger strike so he ate my ration as well.  I was so stupid.  I did not eat, and did not drink as well.  My cellmate told me:  Young man, you have to drink.  You must drink even if you don’t eat.  The next day, two wardman came.  One held the prison key to open the cell ‘s door.  The other held a stack of newspapers.  Later, I found out those newspapers were the Vietnam Newspaper  of Mr. Tran Khanh Du (penname Nhat Linh). These newspapers were Viet Nam Quoc Dan Dang ‘s. They said, if you behave, we will let you read this and asked: Will you or will you not continue your hunger strike?  I said: I will.  I had nothing else to do.  They said: Well, if that ‘s what you really want, we will let you die.  We will move you to death row. After that, they let me out of the cell to the yard in front of the cell.  The yard was only about this room, but there was barbed wire above.  Then I knew this was the solitary confinement section, exclusively reserved for dangerous prisoners.  They let me out in the front yard for about 15 minutes then got me in my cell again.  The next day, the same wardman that had brought me the newspaper came and said:  Now, I will bring you to the death sentence prison.  The death row.  He told the truth. The death row, as you know Hung, was the prison near Richaude street where the Quan Su temple was.  The prison had tall walls with pieces of broken glass bottle built-in on top and there was also electric barbed wire above.  The cells below had iron bars on all sides, but the air was well ventilated.  I had a cell by myself.  Next to me there was another inmate.  We were the only two inmates in the whole prison.  When the wardman left, the other prisoner asked me my name.  He also told me his name, but I forgot.  He was a guardsman (milicien à ceinture blue), a group leader.  He asked why I was imprisoned.  I said they put me in jail for no reason and I went on hunger strike to protest.  He asked how many days have I been on hunger strike?  I said 3 days.  I sounded very weak.  He said, I will throw over the jicama, please eat.  I said, No, I will not eat.  He said, you must eat.  The jicama will give you a little water, or else you will die.  Don’t waste your life.  Then he threw over the jicama.  He said, Please eat young man, before the wardman gets in again.  I ask whether this is the death row? He said: Yes.  This was the French ‘s death row.  Prisoners here were to die within a short time, so they were brought here to have some fresh air as the final favor.  Then I knew I was going to die.  But I was not worried at all.  Then I listened to the other prisoner ‘s advice.  I ate the jicama.  It felt cool and pleasing.  The next two days I did not eat.  They brought in rice, but I did not eat.  They brought in water, and I drank.  The other prisoner said, if you don’t eat, you must drink.  On the 3rd or 4th day, they called me out, and did not say anything.  The other prisoner made a joke.  I told him, this time I am done for.  I am gone for sure.  Out of Hoa Lo prison, I saw long distance buses.  They shackled my hands and led me to the bus.  There were 3 buses.  The other two were already too crowded.  On the third bus, my bus, there were a few already on board.  I was among one of the last.  On my bus all were shackled.  We passed through the Doumer (Long Bien) bridge.  The bus went to Thai Nguyen.  All that were brought to Thai Nguyen were considered about to die.  Thai Nguyen was ostentatiously called the capital of revolution.  They brought us to the provincial prison, also the French prison before.  When we got in, I remembered there was a big yard.  Right on the left of the yard, there was a small private house.  Later, I learned that it was also a prison used exclusively for female inmates.

LMH: Do you remember what month it was in 1945?

NT: August, it ‘s also August, 1945