Interview with Đỗ Đình Tuân

Editor’s Note: The following interview between Nguyễn Mạnh Hùng and Đỗ Đình Tuân has been translated by our editor Vinh Phu Pham and was originally published on our Vietnamese site 4/15/23. Edits have been kept to a minimal in the translation process.

Nguyễn Mạnh Hùng

 

Introduction: Nationalist Parties in Vietnam, 1945-1954 – Witnesses’ Accounts

“We do not have the ambition to write the history of the Nationalist Parties during the August 1945 days, but only to provide raw materials, through the words of related characters, for researchers to evaluate, supplement, and delve deeper to answer major questions related to the August 1945 revolution.

In this document collection, we only record the original and summarize the words of the witnesses. We respect the interviewees and do not verify the accuracy of their statements.”

(Excerpt from Introduction, Nguyen Manh Hung)

Volume I: Dai Viet National Party

Volume II: Vietnam National Party

 

Interview with Do Dinh Tuan

Do Dinh Tuan, former professor at the University of Liberal Arts in Saigon, is the son of Do Dinh Dao, a famous leader of the Vietnam National Party.

The interview was conducted in Santa Ana, California on August 27, 1986.

Interviewer: Nguyen Manh Hung, Professor of Political Science at George Mason University.

Summary:

Do Dinh Tuan and I have many mutual friends. In Saigon before 1975, we lived on the same street. In the early 1980s, we worked together in the National Association for Vietnamese-American Education (NAVAE), where Tuan was the Vice Chairman responsible for the West Coast.

Like Nguyen Tuong Ba, Do Dinh Tuan was born into a revolutionary family. Nguyen Tuong Tam, the cousin of Nguyen Tuong Ba, and Do Dinh Dao, the father of Do Dinh Tuan, were both leading figures of the Vietnam National Party. But unlike Nguyen Tuong Ba who continued the revolutionary career of the Vietnam National Party, Do Dinh Tuan chose a different path, the path of literature and education. If Ba answered the interview with enthusiasm as an insider, Tuan calmly answered with the storytelling of a nostalgic person about the past.

Tuan talked about what he saw and knew about Do Dinh Dao, a hero of the Vietnam National Party during the resistance period from 1945 to 1946, a father who was always absent from home working for the revolution, and who died mysteriously in 1954 in the context of Hanoi’s political conspiracy before the migration to the South, while Tuan’s family had been brought to Saigon three years earlier.

Tuan talked about his father, a powerful figure that he “feared more than loved,” about his father’s famous friends and comrades, such as Uncle Tam (Nguyen Tuong Tam), Uncle Khang (Le Khang, also known as Le Ninh), and Aunt Nhung (Ms. Thuy An). He talked about the battles at his family’s plantation in Tam Long, about the Third Military Zone of the Vietnam National Party, about life in Vinh Yen under the control of the Vietnam National Party, and about the Unity Solution that marked the downfall of the Third Military Zone, which forced his father to flee to China. According to Do Dinh Tuan:

1. Tuân’s paternal side of the family was the wealthiest in North Vietnam at that time. His father used the family’s money and resources to participate in the revolution.
2. Do Dinh Dao joined the Nationalist Party during the French colonial period, before the August Revolution and before the period of party conflict, 1945-1946.
3. Many people in Tuân’s family were victims of that party conflict. His uncle was executed by the Viet Minh. His grandfather died in prison. His grandmother and aunt were also imprisoned for a time. His father was also arrested while serving as a National Assembly delegate.
4. Tuân mentioned the names of some of his father’s close comrades whom few people know, such as Nguyen Duy Di, Nguyen Van Thap, and Le Thanh.
5. Regarding the mysterious death of Do Dinh Dao, before the suspicion of “for love, for money, or for politics” (Vietinfo – The political murder case of Do Dinh Dao and the 60-year-old suspicion), Tuân did not have a definite answer, but he believed that his father was poisoned.
6. Tuân identified that his father had a relationship with Thuy An and on one occasion, when he visited her, he took Tuân along.
7. Tuân recognized that his father and most of the leaders of the Vietnamese Nationalist Party at that time belonged to the petty bourgeois element with romantic tendencies, and that “this was also a weakness.”
8. People who are concerned with national and party affairs often have to neglect family matters, and this affects their children.
9. The Vietnamese Nationalist Party and other nationalist factions at that time “only had the upper stratum,” meaning they lacked the mass base.

Full translation:

Do Dinh Tuan – VP-NMH-A016

Professor Nguyen Manh Hung (NMH): I received a scholarship from the Social Science Research Council to research the role of Vietnamese Nationalist Parties during the period of 1945-1954. I understand that your family member was heavily involved in the Vietnamese Nationalist Party (VNQDD). Based on some stories I have heard, he was a very unique person. I would like to interview you to learn about the background of Do Dinh Dao, his role in the VNQDD, the context in which he operated in Vietnam from 1945 until his passing. Where was he before and after the August Revolution?

Professor Do Dinh Tuan (DDT): My father came from a wealthy family, and he was a high-ranking military official in the royal court with a lot of farmland. Many people considered his family to be the richest in North Vietnam. His wealth is related to his involvement in the VNQDD, where he used a significant portion of the family’s wealth to support soldiers, using a lot of money, gold, and rice. He played the role of Commander-in-Chief of the Third Military Region in 1945-1946. It was suitable because he had resources and people to command to support the military of the VNQDD.

As for my personal experience, I was 9 years old in 1945. At that time, I lived in Tam Long village, Vinh Yen, on my family’s farm.

I still remember two failed attacks by the Viet Minh on our farm. We had to hide under the bed and disguise ourselves as rural residents to escape to the provincial capital of Vinh Yen. By the time we arrived, Vinh Yen had become a battle zone for the VNQDD, and my father was also there. I remember many of his comrades calling him a “cadre.” We, the children, addressed them as “uncle.”

In the area where I lived, there was a hill leading to Dam Vac. My father returned several times after leading military battles and also shared some amusing stories about fighting. Perhaps, some of them were just for fun, such as shooting a hole through a hat with a gun or shooting through the hat with a stick, but the person underneath remained unscathed. At that time, we were still in elementary school.

If you want to ask about my father’s role, as Hùng knows, there are many factions, such as the Vietnam Nationalist Party, which I think has few grassroots infrastructure, meaning that the masses participate little. But in the upper echelons, there are many intellectual officials according to the ideology of Ton That Thien. As a result, there are many officials called politicians who often debate various issues. My father was like a hero with weapons and means. He was the commander of the Third Military Zone. Therefore, it is more correct to say that my father is an activist rather than a politician belonging to the theoretical type, or if speaking with bad intentions, he is called a political salon.

NMH: In the Nationalist Party, they organize according to the type of party central committee member, down to the provincial and department levels. In the ranking list, which category does your father belong to? Is he in the party central committee?

DDT: I’m not sure, but he may belong to the central category. Because I saw my father often socializing on an equal footing with central people.

NMH: Such as?

DDT: Like Nguyen Tuong Tam, Le Ninh. Like in Vinh Yen at that time, it was said that they were the leaders in politics, the most valuable people in politics. The person leading the army was my father.

NMH: But where does the Third Military Zone run from and to?

DDT: As far as I know, the base is where we lived in Vinh Yen, but it runs straight up to Viet Tri, Yen Bai, all the way up to the border.

NMH: Do you remember when your father joined the Nationalist Party in your memories?

DDT: My father didn’t really talk about that, but family members said he joined before the Japanese arrived, even before the French occupation.

NMH: Did your father ever explain why he went into politics, did he explain anything to his family or children?

DDT: No, maybe I was too young to hear about that.

NMH: What about education, was your father educated in the West or in Vietnam?

DDT: My father studied according to the Western curriculum. The level of education was only equivalent to Thanh Chung back then, but in terms of excellence, it was much better.

NMH: Did you he out of school to participate in the revolution? Were you still going to school before the Japanese occupation? If you participated, did you do anything?

ĐĐT: I was a farmer. My family was farming, so my father had to take care of the farm. But of course, there were people who worked a lot, and my father was almost like someone who just directed his assets to keep them growing.

NMH: So you studied at Thanh Chung and then came back to take care of the farm, instead of pursuing other paths like Dai Viet or becoming a government official?

ĐĐT: No, it means I didn’t go to college.

NMH: And then you got involved, you were active, and you used your assets for the party?

ĐĐT: Yes, maybe in 1945-46. Before that, I don’t know how much he contributed in terms of assets.

NMH: In Hoang Van Dao’s book, and according to some others, they say that in 1945, the Nationalist Alliance discussed a coup to overthrow the government before the Viet Minh did so on August 19, around 17-18, but the commanders involved, such as Truong Tu Anh, did not agree for various reasons with the coup on that day. In the Quoc Dan Dang, people like Chu Ba Phuong, Pham Khai Hoan, and Hoang Van Dao were hesitant, so they did not participate in such activities. However, he did mention Le Ninh, also known as Le Khang, and Nguyen Tuong Ba also spoke to me about it. It is said that Le Khang was angry at that time, went to Vinh Yen to overthrow the government. Since he could not capture Hanoi, he went to Vinh Yen to do so. Hoang Van Dao also mentioned the story of his uncle, namely Do Dinh Dao. That is, Le Ninh and Do Dinh Dao discussed and planned to overthrow the government in Vinh Yen. So, do you know anything else about that detail, or can you add more to that detail?

DDT: About that, my father used to talk about how he often went to faraway meetings, but I can’t remember exactly when or if he attended that particular meeting. If we’re talking about those events, then I can confirm that Le Ninh, also known as Le Khang, worked very closely with my father during that time, around 1945-46. That was the time when the Viet Minh held Vinh Yen and my father was the Commander-in-Chief of the Third Military Zone. So if that meeting happened before Le Ninh returned and talked to my father or if my father attended the meeting with Le Ninh before they went back to capture Vinh Yen, then that was during the period when the Viet Minh controlled Vinh Yen, which was when I was living in that province. So I can confirm that something like that happened.

There was a close collaboration between Mr. Le Ninh and my father. However, I am not very clear about the timing because around the year 46, when Viet Minh began to win, there was an event called the “Unity” (Đoàn Kết) and I was still there and had to attend a flag-raising ceremony. On the other side, it seemed like both sides participated in some sort of event, but I can’t remember clearly. However, that was the day when the Vinh Yen regime in South Vietnam was ended by the Viet Nam Quoc Dan Dang. Although it was called “Unity”, everyone knew that afterward the Viet Nam Quoc Dan Dang became weaker, and many party members were arrested and eliminated.

NMH: But when they retook Vinh Yen, did that mean there was a political solution agreed upon by both sides to carry out the “Unity” policy, right?

ĐĐT: Actually, on that day, the day they called the “Unity” day and waved two flags or something, the other side didn’t participate either. But if you say it publicly like that, then it’s now the Unity, that’s it. That is to say…

NMH: So did I withdraw or weaken gradually?

ĐĐT: Maybe, yes, maybe I withdrew or weakened gradually, I’m not sure. But like before, when Vinh Yen was completely under the control of the Viet Nam Quoc Dan Dang, I also attended events like Le Ninh’s speeches or many exhibitions where children drew pictures. Then I remember at that time, they often drew the Viet Nam Quoc Dan Dang fighting the French. They drew the guy who fought the French, but behind the Viet Minh, they were attacking the Viet Nam Quoc Dan Dang. Basically, they had these childish drawings like that. But looking at the political orientation towards the average people, it seems that the Viet Nam Quoc Dan Dang must also resist imperialism. But behind the scenes, they were attacked by the Viet Minh. That was the time in Vinh Yen.

NMH: Can you tell me briefly what you know about Le Ninh, about his background and what kind of person he is?

DDT: I only know him as Uncle Khang, he is a very small person. But when it comes to reasoning and public speaking, he is very eloquent and articulate. It means he is a very good debater, he speaks like a public speaker, very persuasive. When I was little, I didn’t know much about politics, but when I attended those events, I saw that he had a lot of arguments and the audience cheered a lot. Not because of flattery, but because they truly appreciated him. It means they see the point he wants to make and they are either captivated or persuaded because of his talent for speaking.

NMH: What is he like as a person and what kind of person is he when he’s around?

DDT: When we were younger, we used to call him “uncle” and he was very adorable. Of course, we also got to know many of his friends. But Mr. Le Ninh may have been less frequently seen because he was busier. I also met him, but I don’t remember the details. Overall, we really liked him.

NMH: During that period, did your father collaborate with anyone, and was there anyone who belonged to the Nationalist Party or who had a prominent name in the Nationalist Party?

DDT: Later, after my father returned from Hong Kong and China, my sister often saw Mr. Nguyen Duy Di and sometimes even stayed with another trusted person who held an important position in the Nationalist Party, namely Mr. Nguyen Van Thap. Back then, I vaguely remember that many officials were in the combat zone in Vinh Yen. In particular, there was a southern man named Lieutenant Le Thanh who had commanded the defense of Tam Long outpost, in two battles. The outpost was surrounded by thick and tall bamboo trees and had around 70 Mousqueton rifles. They had to defend it twice, while being attacked from outside and from a cannon that fired a multicolored ball, called a BB cannon, which dropped to the ground and then exploded. At that time, Lieutenant Le Thanh commanded the defense of the outpost.

NMH: Did that battle happen before or after 1945?

DDT: Oh, probably in 1945…

NMH: So after Viet Minh took over the government?

DDT: Probably in 1945. I don’t remember which phase exactly, but that was the time I was stationed at Tam Long base. After two battles, one was light and the other was heavy, we had to change into civilian clothes to blend in. Then we walked for a while or maybe took some kind of transportation, I don’t remember. But we walked up a hill to reach Vinh Yen province. At that time, when we arrived in Vinh Yen, we entered the combat zone.

NMH: So Vinh Yen had become a combat zone already?

NMH: So in the province it’s like a division between Vietnam and Viet Minh?

DDT: No, that’s not it. The province of Vinh Yen is completely controlled by Vietnam, the Vietnam National Party, but what I meant is that during the time of North Vietnam, they used to say things like “this province is controlled by Vietnam, this province is controlled by Viet Minh.” Vietnam is the Vietnam National Party.

NMH: How can we determine the time when they attacked Tam Luong? When you arrived in Vinh Yen, you said that Vinh Yen was already taken over by the Vietnam National Party. So, I can understand that it was after August 19, when Le Ninh came back to take over, right?

DDT: I was too young at that time to know about that, but if you ask my mother, she might know.

NMH: Is mom still here?

DDT: Mom is still here.

NMH: Oh, I see. Then I probably have to go and ask the old lady. Like that, because they attacked there, I have to go and ask the her more, because if so, they attacked before and after…

DDT: Just like my aunt, I know her, my aunt is sitting outside.

NMH: Oh, really? That’s great then. I have to meet both the mother and the aunt of that guy. Because that matter is important, I want to remember that moment. The second moment is when he said he hit Tam Long, then I went into Vinh Yen, which was my battlefield. Can it be speculated that I have a feeling that, the provincial governments are held by the Viet Minh, but the countryside may not be. Because for example, Tam Long also belongs to Vinh Yen. And because it hit, it kept hitting from the outside but surrounded me. Isn’t it? That province…

DDT: The Viet Minh is also known as, for example, it’s like the style… like an old farming tool. So some people follow the Viet Minh, some people oppose it, it’s not all the same. The situation is like, if it surrounds you, how can you leave, how can you change clothes and go out. That’s basically it. For example, there is a guy somewhere, maybe he’s a Communist, or he’s Viet Minh, for example, he resists, for example, he doesn’t accept, and he pulls people together and goes to fight in Vinh Yen. Like that. So he’s also Viet Minh, but not all Viet Minh control everything, and the weapons back then were very primitive, there was nothing.

NMH: During that period, when you were in Vinh Yen and the Nationalist Party controlled Vinh Yen, what was the composition of the population that was being controlled?

DDT: Everyone was being controlled…

NMH: Did the farmers follow? Were there many urban people following you?

DDT: It’s just the provincial government. For example, if I set up camp there and I have an influence, the combat zone is almost like those houses belong to the cadres. In the past, it was a temple or something, I don’t know. But basically, that area is for officers. And in the city, of course, ordinary people live with farmers and so on. Because I have soldiers in the combat zone, the affected area is all mine. Therefore, the organization of speeches or propaganda is all done by the Vietnamese Nationalist Party. So I think the people are very supportive of me.

NMH: Can you tell me briefly about your life, your thoughts and opinions? Can you give me some insights into life in Vinh Yen under the Viet Minh?

DDT: I remember going to see performances by the Phung Khanh troupe, who acted in plays such as “La Bo – Dieu Thuyen”. There were also many young people, students, and pupils who put on plays such as “Nguyen Trai – Phi Khanh” and many others. When I was young, I remember seeing many of these plays.

NMH: There were a lot of group activities, right?

DDT: Yes, there were many group activities. Some were entirely artistic, with no political content. I remember the “Nguyen Trai – Phi Khanh” play when I was in Hung Yen, Zone 3. I also saw many similar performances in Hung Yen and Nam Dinh. It was a type of play that was performed everywhere. It usually had a patriotic character and was aimed at mobilizing the masses.

NMH: Because it had songs like those of Do Nhuận, right? Wasn’t it like a musical?

DDT: It had a character of mass mobilization. It was both artistic and aimed at mobilizing the masses. How could we study without going to school? Of course, we had to go to school and also attend group study sessions. We sang a lot, especially heroic songs like “Len Duong” and others. There was a cadre who taught singing, who was also a member of the Viet Minh. He taught us to sing and also instilled patriotism in us.

NMH: Regarding young people like you, teaching singing and then instilling a love for the country, have you mentioned anything about the conflict between the Vietnamese Nationalist Party and the Viet Minh?

DDT: Yes, of course. For example, when I talk to people at the information office, I see pictures that children draw of the Vietnamese Nationalist Party fighting with the West, and being shot by the Viet Minh from behind.

NMH: Did you specifically mention why we had to fight the Viet Minh, why they fought us, or just say that they were bad and they fought us? Do young people like you talk about these things?

DDT: We knew back then, that means, we also called them Viet Minh, which means Communists.

NMH: When you call them Viet Minh, what stereotype do you associate with it?

DDT: It means Communists, something bad. Vietnam is the Vietnamese Nationalist Party, according to the ideologies of Tôn Dật Tiên, Duy Dân, or something else, right? Tam Dân. You have to learn all of those.

NMH: How about the economic situation?

DDT: In terms of the economy, I think that the economic activities seem quite normal, with markets selling everything and life going on as usual. Because my uncle got married in Vinh Yen. The girl he married used to live in Vinh Yen province, in a rural area. So, it was during that time when my uncle was one of those who were targeted by the Viet Cong. He was one of the people who were eliminated by the Viet Minh, like my father. My mother was also arrested but was eventually released. My aunt was also arrested, and she was moved from one detention center to another before she was eventually released. In summary, my mother was arrested but was released soon after or within a few days. My aunt was detained and transferred from one place to another, but eventually released. However, my grandfather died in prison. Some people knew where he was buried. As for my uncle, no one knows what happened to him because he was still young.

NMH: Your grandfather’s name was Do…

DDT: Do Dinh Tien. He was a veterinarian. His name was actually Doc Tien, but I don’t know if he could be called a veterinary doctor at that time.

NMH: At that time, he was…he was arrested after 1945, after the Revolution Day, after the Unity Day, or before the Unity Day?

DDT: He was arrested after, right? After 1945?

NMH: So, after 1945?

DDT: Oh, before Unity Day, right? No, it was probably after Unity Day. Because my grandfather was still in Hanoi after the Unity Day, living in the Thuy Khe area in an ordinary house. He was arrested much later. So, he might have been arrested at the end of 1946. My uncle might have disappeared before…

NMH: Around what time did the Kuomintang lose control? Was it because of a battle or something else?

DDT: No, that was only after the Unity Bloc.

NMH: During the time that the Kuomintang controlled Vinh Phu Yen, Vinh Yen, were there no battles that occurred?

DDT: No, there were none. No battles occurred.

NMH: No battles at all? Then suddenly, after the Unity Bloc, you noticed that they lost control?

DDT: Yes, after the Unity Bloc, the situation gradually became chaotic and they lost control. It just happened suddenly because it was no longer a stronghold, and there were no more soldiers to maintain it. It gradually fell apart. That’s what I think, because my father also went somewhere else, maybe to Hanoi. There was a time when he was a representative, a representative for the National Assembly of…

NMH: In 1946?

DDT: Yes, in 1946. He was captured by the Viet Minh, but he resisted and managed to escape. Later on…

NMH: Where was he captured? In Hanoi?

DDT: In Hanoi.

NMH: He became a representative and was still captured?

ĐĐT: I was a delegate, but at that time, just like Mr. Nguyen Tuong Tam, he was a minister of foreign affairs, and yet he had to flee to China. My father was just a delegate…

NMH: You visited your parents as a delegate and then visited your cousin at the hospital, and then they came and arrested you?

ĐĐT: I heard that there were three of them, and my father fired his gun, and he managed to escape. Although he was a delegate, if they had caught him, it would have been like being killed. Like many other leaders or officials. Most of his friends, I don’t see them anymore. Almost all of them were killed.

NMH: When your father began to contact Viet Minh, before the Japanese period, did you notice anything strange about his behavior? Did he always stay in that house? Did he ever leave?

DDT: He didn’t contact Viet Minh…

NMH: No, he didn’t. I’m sorry… I mean he joined the Nationalist Party during the time even before the Japanese, did you see any secret activities, or anything strange?

DDT: That’s when I was still young, I don’t really know. But my family lived in many places. My mother also often stayed with the family, taking care of the children. So my father traveled a lot, I don’t know if it was for political activities or other things. My family had a farm in Noi Vien, which is in Bac Ninh province. I stayed there for a few summers and there was a pond nearby. It was also a place where my aunt lived, who was my father’s sister. She managed the farm in Noi Vien. The farm that our family owned was in Vinh Yen, which is called Tam Long. There were also other places, like Hanoi, where my father often stayed. Between Bac Ninh, Vinh Yen, and Hanoi, my father traveled back and forth.

NMH: He traveled regularly, right? I wonder where he was in 1945?

DDT: I don’t know because he had cars, horses and everything else. So it’s impossible to know what he did before 1945.

NMH: Where was he in 1945 then? Did he go straight to Vinh Yen and stay in a war zone?

NMH: Do you remember if he was in the war zone, because during the time the Viet Cong attacked the outpost, your father was not there. As far as I remember, only Lieutenant Le Thanh was in command of the defense.

DDT: Yes, he was in charge of the military affairs.

NMH: Then when you went to Vinh Yen, did you see your father?

DDT: I can’t remember clearly whether I saw him immediately after I arrived, but I did see him. He was inside the house…

NMH: Did he stay there until the Doan Ket event, or did he leave before it? Do you remember the Doan Ket event?

DDT: Yes, but he may have left before the Doan Ket event. I can’t remember clearly, but when I was a child, I was there during the Doan Ket event.

NMH: Was Le Ninh there during the Doan Ket event? Did he participate in the ceremony?

DDT: I can’t remember clearly.

NMH: Was father there?

DDT: I remember when I was young I learned a lesson like “Vu Hong Khanh is my friend”. Because later, because no one talked about who the leader was, there was a time that wasn’t very clear, but later it was said that Vu Hong Khanh was the leader.

NMH: As far as I know, Mr. Vu Hong Khanh is also a military person. Your father is also a military person. There are many things in the National Party. At least, I see that there is one side with Mr. Vu Hong Khanh, and on the other side is Mr. Nguyen Tuong Tam.

DDT: But my father was also very close with Nguyen Tuong Tam. He called him “Uncle Tam, Uncle Tam,” very fondly. As for Nguyen Tuong Tam, I’m not sure because later I heard that he was either expelled from the party or transferred, but I don’t know for sure because there were many factions. But I remember when I was young in Vinh Yen, I learned a song called “Vu Hong Khanh, my friend.” And we called Vu Hong Khanh the party leader. Nguyen Tuong Tam was a very close friend of my family, we stayed in touch even after the separation. We also lived with my father in China, where he made a living playing the trumpet. There was a very close friend there. And when we came back here, we sometimes went to visit Nguyen Gia Tri in the South, for example, with Nguyen Tuong Tam, meaning a very close friend. And outside of Hanoi, I remember being close with Le Ngoc Chan. Le Ngoc Chan was also very close, because we kept in touch a lot. When we were little, we sometimes had to deliver letters from my father to Le Ngoc Chan. Le Ngoc Chan was in a room that was like a house next to the Chinese Embassy at that time.

NMH: Which period was that?

DDT: That was in 1948, after my father returned from Hong Kong. It might have been 1948 or 1949 because I think my father returned in 1948.

NMH: So after he left Vinh Yen, the old man was considered defeated in Vinh Yen and then he became a delegate. He went into hiding after becoming a delegate, is that when he fled?

DDT: Yes, that’s right. He was caught and had to flee. He changed his appearance and went down to Hai Phong, where he was helped onto a boat and went to the Chinese side.

NMH: So he went to China. Did he have any contact with his family after that, or did he disappear?

DDT: Well, he probably only communicated through messages and such. But when he and his group went to Te and then returned to Hanoi, they contacted him and he returned home in 1948 and lived with them again.

NMH: What did he do when he returned? Did you hear that he did anything while he was in China?

DDT: Yes, he went to various places, including Kunming and other places.

NMH: Did he still have contact with the Viet Nam Quoc Dan Dang?

DDT: Yes, he was in a group with Nguyen Tuong Tam and Truong Bao Son. When I went to Te and wrote a poem for him, I called him Wang Wet Men.

NMH: How do you write “Wang Wet Men” in Vietnamese?

DDT: Just write it in Roman letters. Wang Wet Men is probably Hoang Viet Dan, which is my father’s name. Truong Bao Son, on the other hand, is Chang Bao San. For example, when writing poetry, and after some time, my father returned.

NMH: When he was in China, what did he do for a living? Did you say he played the trumpet?

DDT: He played the saxophone a lot.

NMH: Saxophone? Nguyen Tuong Tam also played an instrument, was it clarinet, right?

DDT: Yes, clarinet.

NMH: So where did he learn to play, did he learn after he moved there?

DDT: Oh, my father was very talented. He knew how to play the trumpet, then the piano, he knew everything, singing, and anything. He was good at sports too. He also played chess. In sports, he won a prize in the perissoire (a small boat with two paddles often used for racing). He was from a wealthy family, so he had the opportunity to learn everything. He was also good at shooting and hunting.

NMH: He was the Third Division Commander in the War Zone, did he study military science somewhere? Did he receive any military training before that?

DDT: No, I would say no, not sure if there is any formal training involved. You probably also read books, because you are also familiar with many people from Hoang Pho.

NMH: Like Vo Nguyen Giap?

DDT: Oh, he’s from Hoang Pho too. You like martial arts. The second thing is that there are resources, like I said. That means if you have money, you can feed soldiers and have guns.

NMH: Did you recruit them or did the Nationalist Party recruit for you?

DDT: Maybe I recruited more. That means those people who were loyal to the outpost in the past. But later on, of course, there were many soldiers, and someone else had to help recruit, otherwise he couldn’t recruit them all.

NMH: According to the way American political researchers say it, are most of them personal followers of you?

DDT: The soldiers? No, not many. If, for example, 70 soldiers defended the Tam Long outpost, then they could be called the outpost guards, or loyalists of the family or the outpost. They are loyal to the owner, so they defend. But later, there were many soldiers who were stationed in Vinh Yen by the Nationalist Party of Vietnam, so it is impossible for them to be personal followers.

NMH: According to the Communist analyses, in summary, the relationship between the landowners and the peasants is a relationship that is characterized by exploitation. You lived in Tam Long estate, how did you perceive that belief? Now, looking back, what is your true opinion?

DDT: Thinking back, honestly speaking, I can’t say for sure whether the price of rice was inflated or not. But in general, regarding the famine in the estate, my family always used to say that in Tam Long estate, in Vinh Yen, no one died of starvation. Because those who lacked rice came to the estate to ask me for rice. I remember seeing dozens of people standing outside the gate every day, waiting to receive their share. That is, taking rice from the warehouse, there was still rice left in the warehouse, but we distributed it gradually to keep the whole estate from going hungry. I learned this way of helping others from my family. It’s obviously a compassionate act. And personally, I have seen many people who still keep in touch with my family even after moving to Saigon, still showing gratitude to my family. They are not people who have received special favors, but ordinary people who still care about my family. I only know this because I grew up in a family that witnessed such scenes.

NMH: Have you ever witnessed violence?

DDT: No.

NMH: Now let’s go back to phase 48, the old man has returned. Then you said you still communicate with Le Ngoc Chan through secret letters. So does that mean he is still active in the Nationalist Party? What did he do during that time?

DDT: Yes, he continued. After that, he also got to know many people. And then he became the Inspector of Mobile Administrative Groups (GAMO). He worked in Binh Dinh after the French army returned the villages to Vietnam. At that time, I think the Governor of North Vietnam was Nguyen Huu Tri, then Binh Dinh, and my father … For many people, they think that my father wanted to keep his old comrades to establish GAMO and have a force. At first, he was called the Director, and then the Inspector. It seems that the Inspector’s position was not as high as the Director’s position, but the Inspector traveled to many places. There was a book before, it was given by a deputy director, I remember there were a lot of pictures, my father went … to places like Phat Diem, or Ninh Binh, Thai Binh, or Hai Duong. Those people were wearing slightly different clothes, but they were also soldiers with guns. In Binh Dinh, my father had many comrades from various places.

NMH: Regarding the Mobile Reserve Force, how can it be compared to the top-ranking military forces in Vietnam during the First and Second Republics? Can it be considered a Regional Force or a Territorial Force?

DDT: No, it’s a little different. Because as far as I know, back then the Mobile Reserve Force was primarily a military force, and secondly it had a punitive character. For example, during military campaigns, when French soldiers like De Lattre de Tassigny or Cogny, for instance, chased the Viet Minh out of a certain area, it was necessary to establish civil administration in Vietnam. The civil administration and military operations were combined, and that was the Mobile Reserve Force.

NMH: So, did your father work with Nguyen Huu Tri in that program? Was Nguyen Huu Tri a Dai Viet member?

DDT: Yes, probably.

NMH: Was your father a Nationalist Party member? And did the Nationalist Party change to become Dai Viet later on? Because I know some Nationalist Party members later became Dai Viet members.

DDT: According to my memory, my father never mentioned Dai Viet, but he still considered Dai Viet as a friendly organization. Sometimes he would say that they were different, very different; sometimes he would say that they were friendly, meaning they were not so different. That’s what I know. But my father never identified himself as a Dai Viet member. He only considered himself a member of the Vietnamese Nationalist Party.

NMH: During which period did you work as a mobile military officer, probably in what year?

DDT: It’s probably in the year…, no, it’s too early. It’s probably from 50 to 52 or something like that.

NMH: At the end of 1949, there was the Bao Dai Solution, and then in January the other side recognized Ho Chi Minh. So it must be after 1950.

DDT: Yes, it’s definitely after 1950. Because in 1951, we had already gone to Saigon. And when I was in Saigon, it seems that your father still worked as a mobile military officer outside. I remember it roughly like that. Your father passed away in 1954.

NMH: Can you tell me what your father did during the period from 1950 to 1954, and what kind of life he had?

DDT: We joined the military in 1951. In January 1951, we went south. At that time, I heard that your father was working as the Deputy Chief of the Office of the Ministry of Defense. It was probably a position for…I didn’t see him do anything else. At that time, there was probably a Minister or a Chief named Huy. Under the time of the Chief named Huy. Nguyen something Huy. I’ll check and let you know.

NMH: So in 1951, your father didn’t go to work, but he went with you instead?

DDT: Maybe back then he was given a position to bring my family in. When my family was brought in, they used the name Chuẩn Uý Đỗ Đình Đạo. That’s how the military brought my family to the Ville de Haiphong ship for evacuation. That was in 1951, in Saigon. But later on, when I saw the birth certificates of my younger siblings, including my sister, she was listed as the Deputy Chief of Office. At that time, the Minister was named Huy. I don’t remember if it was Le Quang Huy or just Huy.

NMH: So did he stay in Saigon or did he move to Hanoi?

DDT: He stayed in Saigon, working there at times. Because I remember a relative of mine was hired to work there.

NMH: Did you still worry about the Mobile Reserve Forces during that time? If not, then during the time you were in Saigon, you wouldn’t have been worried about the Mobile Reserve Forces. When you worried about the Mobile Reserve Forces, it was only when you were in Hanoi.

DDT: So in 1951 he went in, and then he came out, going in and out.

NMH: What did he do there? Do you know what he did?

DDT: I don’t know either. When my father died, there was talk of the Bắc Việt Protection Movement.

NMH: So when did your father die, before or after the Geneva Accords?

DDT: After the Geneva Agreement was signed and my father was still in Hanoi. So, at that time, people called him a traitor, because of money, or because of politics.

NMH: So he was considered one of the people who wanted to stay in Hanoi?

DDT: Yes, that’s right.

NMH: So he supported Hoang Co Binh?

DDT: He supported him.

NMH: He wanted to stay. But I heard he was poisoned to death. Is that true?

DDT: It may be true.

NMH: Poisoned to death? Was he poisoned to death?

DDT: But there is something that I don’t know if he was poisoned somewhere else and then brought it there, or he died there.

NMH: I’m asking this question is a bit of a personal nature, but because it is history. People talk and write about the love affair between your father and Mrs. Thuy An, and there is a connection between his death and Mrs. Thuy An. That is, people say that Mrs. Thuy An was a double agent for the West…

DDT: That is very possible.

NMH: The West, right? And also for the Viet Cong? The West, the Viet Minh too?

DDT: Maybe people say she was the lover of Vo Nguyen Giap. In the past, she used to fly on Western military planes back and forth all the time. She speaks French very well, and I know that.

NMH: She’s not beautiful.

DDT: Not beautiful.

NMH: Not beautiful, but a very intelligent person. And she likes big men, heroic men, and that’s why she’s Vo Nguyen Giap’s lover. And that’s why she’s also always the lover of Do Dinh Dao. So what do you think about that hypothesis…

DDT: She may have killed, not necessarily not. Because dying at her house is one thing. Secondly, if it comes to the story that she is a double spy or a triple spy, it may also be true. She, like many others, is said to have had contacts with Vo Nguyen Giap and had contacts with the West a lot. But at that time, neither Viet Minh nor France wanted to protect North Vietnam, because France had already signed a treaty to cede North Vietnam. And of course, Viet Minh had to fight for it. Whether it is called love or not, I know that my father was acquainted with her and we still call her Aunt Nhung. Because Thuuy An’s husband at that time was Bui Nhung. As a result, we became familiar with the whole family, even their children, and we call her Aunt Nhung. And there was a time when my father took me to Thuy An’s house.

NMH: Is that Bui Nhung, Professor Bui Nhung?

DDT: Mr. Bui Nhung is referred to as a professor, but in reality, he used to be the Director of Hanoi Broadcasting Station. Mr. Bui Nhung also has a reputation for being quite notorious. He took this woman, then took her niece, and then took his secretary. His status is also quite weak. And it seems that when he worked at the broadcasting station, there were also many scandals.

NMH: Is Bui Nhung the same person as the later Professor Bui Nhung, who follows Buddhism?

DDT: That’s right, according to Buddhism. Yes, that’s him. He later followed that path.

NMH: So did Mrs. Thuy An die later?

DDT: No. At that time, Mrs. Thuy An had already suffered enough, so she stayed.

NMH: Did she stay in Hanoi after 1954?

DDT: Yes, she stayed in Hanoi. I heard that she was also punished in the Nhan Van-Giai Pham affair. And it seems that she had some kind of vision problem, I’m not sure.

NMH: Do you know if she had any contact with the Nationalist Party?

DDT: As far as I know, I have never heard of any contact with the Nationalist Party, but when I was familiar with my father, he may have helped my father with some things related to the Nationalist Party. There was no mention that she was a member of the Nationalist Party.

NMH: In my reading of the Nationalist Party, especially the Vietnamese Nationalist Party, I see that many of the famous figures, such as Nguyen Tuong Tam, your father, and other leaders, including Dai Viet, are mostly petite bourgeoisie. Their minds tend to be romantic. They often think of actions that are considered beautiful and heroic. I see this in your father as well. He had many characteristics that reflected this. He was born into a wealthy family, excelled in sports, and was good at everything. He was an adventurer and gave up his position to fight against the French, then against the Viet Minh. In the end, he died under mysterious circumstances as a commander of the Secret Army. He was an action-oriented person throughout his life, serving as a General and Commander of the Third Military Region, and later as a Commander of the Secret Army. Even when he died, he wanted to resist. However, he refused to let go of North Vietnam and died under a cloud of suspicion surrounding money, love, or politics. Do you think that your father represents these types of people? Secondly, do you think that the notion of heroism among the petite bourgeoisie is a weakness of the Nationalist Party, which tends to focus on the organization and systemization of things, but often thinks of individuals?

ĐĐT: That’s right, that’s a very accurate observation. That means I also find it very romantic. Although human activity with military affairs does not seem romantic, but according to your logical reasoning, it is actually very romantic. Like the style of Võ Đại Tôn. Secondly, it is also a disadvantage, if the purpose is to seize power, which means escaping from the people’s reality, as well as resisting the Communists, or to seize power to implement Vietnam’s policy according to the party’s line, then it is also a disadvantage if it is too romantic.

NMH: I dare not say it is tradition, if I say it is tradition, then perhaps the members of the Nationalist Party will curse me. I think Nguyen Thai Hoc was also very knowledgeable. In the past, people should have studied literature, but he went to study at the College of Commerce, which was very practical. Until before he died, he decided to participate in the Yen Bai uprising. He knew he would not succeed, he knew he was in a hurry, but he said “if not successful, then a hero”. Then there were many others. Then it was his turn, until 1954, I still feel that he was thinking about the phrase “if not successful, then a hero”. That is, when you die, you have to die beautifully. And he resisted things he thought were bad, he resisted against the French as bad, he resisted against the Viet Minh as bad, and he resisted against the division of the country. That is, he always demanded ideals, he demanded absolute, without compromise. And in this way, perhaps he didn’t think much about seizing power or overthrowing the government. That is, there are two options, the first is to overthrow the government, and then what? I think these people often think about overthrowing the government, but they don’t think about holding power to implement policies. They don’t crave power.

ĐĐT: Regarding politics, there must be someone who is knowledgeable about it. For example, there are those who only know how to overthrow the government. Or sometimes on a smaller scale, let’s say there’s a military unit and there’s a leader, but their only task is to occupy that province. I believe my father also had ambitions as a person. But of course, with limited knowledge, he only thought about a part of the issue of governing the country, not the whole thing.

NMH: Do you have anything else to add about your father? Is there something, some stereotype of your father that you think is incorrect? Or is there something that you think you need to know more about your father?